Go to Post But I suppose friendly reminders to read the manual are much better than sarcastic ones. - dtengineering [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Pneumatics
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-11-2016, 22:24
Chris86 Chris86 is offline
Registered User
FRC #4064 (Inzombiacs)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 33
Chris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to behold
Re: Pneumatics Math Help

So this is a torque balance problem about your hinge point:

The scalar form of this is:
Tcyl = Fcyl*distance to hinge point.

But what we really want to work with is the vector form:
Tcyl = Fcyl x distance (where x represents the vector cross product)

Letting x represent horizontal distances (along the stationary base) and y representing vertical distances and the origin be at the hinge point where your bar is rotating about.

I'm going to assume you know a the value A1 which is the angle above the horizontal from the hinge point of the piece to the cylinder's attachment point on the link and the distance between these two points. (In your extended images its around 30 deg, and retracted is ~120 deg)

We can find the x, y locations of the attachment point as:
xa = R*cos(A1), ya = R*sin(A1)

Let A2 be the angle above the horizontal from the rear hinge point (xh, yh) of the pneumatic cylinder to its attachment point to the link and L1 be the distance between this point Now, we also have
xa = xh + L1*cos(A2), ya = yh + L1*sin(A2) (two equations, two unknowns - L1 and A2)

So now we know the direction of the force which is what we needed. The torque it generates is a combination of the torques from its horizontal and vertical components: (define clockwise as negative - since I worked this out in the scalar instead of vector form, you need to handle the signs yourself)
Horizontal Component Fcyl,h = Fcyl*cos(A2)
Tcyl,h = Fcyl*cos(A2)*ya = Fcyl*cos(A2)*R*sin(A1)
(As shown, this component should always be positive)

Vertical Component Fcyl,v = Fcyl*sin(A2)
Tcyl,v = Fcyl*sin(A2)*xa = Fcyl*sin(A2)*R*cos(A1)
(As shown, this component should be negative for A1>90 deg)

Tcyl = Fcyl*R*(cos(A2)*sin(A1) + sin(A2)*cos(A1));

For solving how big the cylinder should be, you'll need to do a similar problem with the weight of your actuated member/any external forces applied and solve for the torque that those forces generate.
__________________
Current mentor for Team #4064
Proud former member of Team #86: Team Resistance 2007-2011

Last edited by Chris86 : 23-11-2016 at 22:27.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-11-2016, 00:01
s_forbes's Avatar
s_forbes s_forbes is offline
anonymous internet person
FRC #0842 (Falcon Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,134
s_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pneumatics Math Help

For a linkage like this, you need to work out how much torque the cylinder applies to the member that moves. The diagram would look like this:





The blue line shows the axis of the pneumatic cylinder. The red line in the sketch shows the distance between the axis of the cylinder and the point the mechanism rotates around. The red and blue lines are perpendicular no matter what angle the mechanism is at (that's important! and possibly the confusing part).

The torque applied to the moving member is equal to the force from the cylinder times the distance indicated by the red line. Torque = Force x Distance. It looks like you are using Solidworks to model your mechanism, I'd recommend making a simple sketch like the one above that has the correct dimensions for all of the parts, then you can measure the distance of the red line. With that you can find the torque on the moving member at any orientation you put it in.

Chris86 posted the mathematics behind this, but diagrams are a bit easier to understand if you are getting used to the concepts. Note that when the red line is the longest, you have the maximum torque applied to the mechanism! And when the red line becomes very small, you have very little torque applied to the mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-11-2016, 00:09
Sam Skoglund's Avatar
Sam Skoglund Sam Skoglund is offline
Registered User
FRC #2232 (Deus Ex Machina)
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Anoka MN
Posts: 29
Sam Skoglund is a jewel in the roughSam Skoglund is a jewel in the roughSam Skoglund is a jewel in the rough
Re: Pneumatics Math Help

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I will be sure to post again here if I get it figured out, so that others can work through this calculation too.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-11-2016, 01:43
GeeTwo's Avatar
GeeTwo GeeTwo is offline
Technical Director
AKA: Gus Michel II
FRC #3946 (Tiger Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Slidell, LA
Posts: 3,609
GeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pneumatics Math Help

Not meaning to contradict any of the notes above, but in designing such a joint, I find it convenient to first look at the amount of work to be done. In the case of the 90 degree rotating arm, this would be π/4 (90 degrees in radians) * arm length * [average] force required at end of arm. The result will be in ft-lb or N-m, or other similar units. Then, divide this amount of work by the working pressure on the cylinder (perhaps 50 lb / in2) which is the smallest possible displacement (that is, area times stroke) to do this amount of work. Don't forget to convert feet to inches!

Multiply this minimum displacement by a nice safety factor (1.5 if you don't mind the stroke being rather stately, or perhaps 5 to 10 if you want fast action). This will allow you to come up with a fairly small set of reasonable "stock" cylinders. If you use Bimba cylinders, the "power factor" (first two digits of original line cylinders part number) is the area of the piston in tenths of a square inch, and the remainder is the stroke length, so to calculate the displacement of a Bimba cyldinder, just multiply power factor * stroke / 10. (Example: an SR 1715 cylinder's displacement is 17 * 15 / 10 = 25.5 in3.)

THEN, for each candidate cylinder, figure out the appropriate mount points. Shorter, thicker cylinders will mount closer to the pivot but will require larger forces, possibly meaning thicker plates and bolts and certainly better precision. Longer, thinner cylinders will mount further from the pivot (requiring more maneuvering room), but the forces will be smaller and probably more reliable, especially if your manufacturing is subject to error.
__________________

If you can't find time to do it right, how are you going to find time to do it over?
If you don't pass it on, it never happened.
Robots are great, but inspiration is the reason we're here.
Friends don't let friends use master links.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-11-2016, 03:05
Ari423's Avatar
Ari423 Ari423 is online now
LabVIEW aficionado and robot addict
AKA: The guy with the yellow hat
FRC #5987 (Galaxia)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Haifa, Israel
Posts: 597
Ari423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant futureAri423 has a brilliant future
Re: Pneumatics Math Help

I love the complicated physics in this problem as much as the next guy, but it might be easier if you can mount something like this rotary actuator next to the pivot point. This will also have the added benefit of providing a constant force throughout the rotation as opposed to a dynamic force with the linear actuator. Most pneumatics suppliers sell some version of this.

Disclaimer: I have not actually used one of these (because I haven't had the need) so I don't have any real world experience to say whether or not it's easier.
__________________
2017-present: Mentor FRC 5987
2017-present: CSA for FIRST in Israel
2012-2016: Member FRC 423
2013: Programmer
2014: Head Programmer, Wiring
2015: Head Programmer, Wiring
2016: Captain, Head Programmer, Wiring, Manipulator, Chassis, CAD, Business, Outreach (basically everything)


Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-11-2016, 14:20
ollien ollien is online now
Registered User
FRC #5202
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 314
ollien has a spectacular aura aboutollien has a spectacular aura aboutollien has a spectacular aura about
Re: Pneumatics Math Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari423 View Post
I love the complicated physics in this problem as much as the next guy, but it might be easier if you can mount something like this rotary actuator next to the pivot point. This will also have the added benefit of providing a constant force throughout the rotation as opposed to a dynamic force with the linear actuator. Most pneumatics suppliers sell some version of this.

Disclaimer: I have not actually used one of these (because I haven't had the need) so I don't have any real world experience to say whether or not it's easier.
Pretty sweet. A bit pricey, but nothing too crazy. Would love to see a place I could purchase these other than Bimba, because of their crazy turnaround times.

McMaster sells them, but at a uh.. rather hefty price.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:17.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi