1.1 Pump (am-3227) Really an improvement?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Got to LOVE quantitative results!
Now that extra pound has solid numbers to justify it.

Is there a chance you also captured the amount of current that was being drawn at each sample point?

I have the numbers for the 1.1 Pump up to 100 PSI handy; I don't have them for the Viair.

10	10
20	11
30	11.3
40	11.8
50	12.5
60	12.8
70	13
80	13.1
90	13.1
100	13.7

Originally Posted by jwfoss

Thank you for running this test, real data is the best data.

Any chance you can post the set up you used for other teams to recreate. Additionally it would be fantastic if you could compare with other legal compressor on the market such as:
- Viair 250C-IG
- Old KOP Thomas
- Thomas 215

I've attached a picture of our setup. (The tee at the bottom was connected to more Clippard tanks, as you can imagine.)

We don't have access to those other compressors, so someone would have to collect them.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Billfred

We don't have access to those other compressors, so someone would have to collect them.

I got this:

[Richard Wallace]

In a thread from 2015, my team posted some results comparing compressors based on initial charge time 0-120 PSI and on recharge time 100-120 PSI.

Our test set-up is shown schematically in an attachment to this old post.

[Mr V]

Personally I'd like to see a test similar to the one Richard posted in that other thread with a slight modification. https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/a...3&d=1423070065

I'd suggest taking some plugs sized to fit the dump valve outlet and drill holes of various sizes through their end. The goal would be to create an orifice that causes the compressor to cycle on say 15-30 sec after the valve is first opened, with that particular stored volume.

Then record the cycle times over the length of a match.

It would also be interesting to see what happens when the orifice is sized so that the system is unable to build enough pressure to shut off during a normal match length. I know I've seen robots the compressor continues to run for the duration of the match either due to leaks or high demand.

Note if there are no spikes lying around a standard automotive relay could be substituted, just grab Andy's or maybe Danny's keys and borrow one. Just make sure it is for something mission critical like the fuel pump or PCM and not one they can do without like the AC compressor.

[Andy Baker]

Thank you all for the comments and interest in this new AndyMark product.

We have exhausted our efforts to get the right pump for the FIRST community, and now are experiencing the pressure to deliver. This work has been done during a compressed amount of time, over 4-5 months.

When we first put out the CFM numbers, I calculated them incorrectly, so the numbers were off. Also, I didn't update the Viair performance numbers, so their comparative analysis was not right. The previous Viair numbers were during a 13.8 volt test from Viair.

I put up an example on how the flow rate was calculated on each page (Viair and the 1.1 Pump).

Originally Posted by jwfoss

Thank you for running this test, real data is the best data.

Any chance you can post the set up you used for other teams to recreate. Additionally it would be fantastic if you could compare with other legal compressor on the market such as:
- Viair 250C-IG
- Old KOP Thomas
- Thomas 215

As Billfred mentioned previously, we will test any reasonable pump on this same bench test. I *might* have an old KOP Thomas. I don't have the others. If you send them to me, I will test, post the results here, and then send them back. Put a note in the box saying "pump test" and give me your return address. Send to "AndyMark Pump Test, 2311 N. Washington St. Kokomo, IN 46901". Heck, we may even send the pump back with some surprises.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Is the inlet air filtered at all? The Viar has a filter built into the end cap, but this one seems to just be an open hole to the pump.

Yeah, there is a plastic inlet filter included (in the box) with the pump. It's just not on the picture. I will ask Brett to take another pic.

Originally Posted by Mr V

Personally I'd like to see a test similar to the one Richard posted in that other thread with a slight modification. https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/a...3&d=1423070065

I'd suggest taking some plugs sized to fit the dump valve outlet and drill holes of various sizes through their end. The goal would be to create an orifice that causes the compressor to cycle on say 15-30 sec after the valve is first opened, with that particular stored volume.

Then record the cycle times over the length of a match.

It would also be interesting to see what happens when the orifice is sized so that the system is unable to build enough pressure to shut off during a normal match length. I know I've seen robots the compressor continues to run for the duration of the match either due to leaks or high demand.

Note if there are no spikes lying around a standard automotive relay could be substituted, just grab Andy's or maybe Danny's keys and borrow one. Just make sure it is for something mission critical like the fuel pump or PCM and not one they can do without like the AC compressor.

Hmmm. I will investigate Richard's test and see what we can do. Since we have a few things going on around here these days, I may not get to this very soon.

Thanks,
Andy

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Thank you all for the comments and interest in this new AndyMark product.

We have exhausted our efforts to get the right pump for the FIRST community, and now are experiencing the pressure to deliver. This work has been done during a compressed amount of time, over 4-5 months.

When we first put out the CFM numbers, I calculated them incorrectly, so the numbers were off. Also, I didn't update the Viair performance numbers, so their comparative analysis was not right. The previous Viair numbers were during a 13.8 volt test from Viair.

I put up an example on how the flow rate was calculated on each page (Viair and the 1.1 Pump).



As Billfred mentioned previously, we will test any reasonable pump on this same bench test. I *might* have an old KOP Thomas. I don't have the others. If you send them to me, I will test, post the results here, and then send them back. Put a note in the box saying "pump test" and give me your return address. Send to "AndyMark Pump Test, 2311 N. Washington St. Kokomo, IN 46901". Heck, we may even send the pump back with some surprises.



Yeah, there is a plastic inlet filter included (in the box) with the pump. It's just not on the picture. I will ask Brett to take another pic.



Hmmm. I will investigate Richard's test and see what we can do. Since we have a few things going on around here these days, I may not get to this very soon.

Thanks,
Andy

Thank you for your tireless work to make new and better products available to the community at reasonable prices.

Note I'm personally more interested with the cycle times than current draw but I'm sure others are very interested in current draw, both start up and average running.

Thanks again for all you do for us FIRST'ers.

[cbale2000]

Not sure if you have a thermal probe handy, but is there any chance you could test heat buildup over time as well as time to cool down to room temp with those compressors? We did some testing on the vlair compressor a few years back but I'd be curious to see the results from other compressors too.

It could be a handy way for teams to judge whether or not they should be using a compressor with a higher duty cycle (and larger thermal mass) based on how long during a match they expect their compressor to run.

[Jeffrafa]

Thanks Andy and Billfred for your quick work in testing these two compressors. It is great to have a representative comparison under the same controlled conditions.

Coming from a team that typically is pretty heavy on the use of pneumatics, the 1.1 Pump looks like a solid upgrade with ~30% faster fill times. It is great to have another cost-competitive option readily available for teams.

With the 1.1 pump being 0.97 lbs heavier than the Viair, there is a bit of a weight disadvantage. However I would expect in many scenarios it would be more optimal to upgrade to a 1.1 Pump, rather than add another air tank at 0.64 lbs (at least from a weight/performance perspective). Additional accumulators only get you so far, if your consumption rate is outstripping the ability of the compressor to keep up.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

We have exhausted our efforts to get the right pump for the FIRST community, and now are experiencing the pressure to deliver. This work has been done during a compressed amount of time, over 4-5 months.

.................................

Thanks,
Andy

Worst. Pneumatic. Puns. Ever.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Worst. Pneumatic. Puns. Ever.

Really? I thought they were a gas.

Seriously, the value of this upgrade becomes clearer when you calculate how much air you can compress in an hour. Assuming you have your pressure switch's range set so that your "average" pumping is at 100psi (and don't bleed your tanks between matches):
The 1.1: 0.31 cfm * 15% * 60 minutes = 2.79 cf/hr
Viair: 0.22cfm * 9% * 60 minutes = 1.19 cf/hr

That's about 2.3 times as much air, for $6 extra and less than a pound more!

[Andrew_L]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Really? I thought they were a gas.

Seriously, the value of this upgrade becomes clearer when you calculate how much air you can compress in an hour. Assuming you have your pressure switch's range set so that your "average" pumping is at 100psi (and don't bleed your tanks between matches):
The 1.1: 0.31 cfm * 15% * 60 minutes = 2.79 cf/hr
Viair: 0.22cfm * 9% * 60 minutes = 1.19 cf/hr

That's about 2.3 times as much air, for $6 extra and less than a pound more!

Definitely useful for those hour-long FRC matches

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew_L

Definitely useful for those hour-long FRC matches

During drive practice, we usually run for more than an hour at a clip except for some battery swaps.

While individual matches are not nearly that long, the duty cycle issue on the compressor is more important over the course of a day of competition than a match (at least in my experience). Running a compressor two minutes from a cold start isn't too bad, but if you are also doing any pit tests which need air or go over to the practice field or have matches close together, it matters. During the later rounds of playoffs, it could be critical.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Thank you all for the comments and interest in this new AndyMark product.

As Billfred mentioned previously, we will test any reasonable pump on this same bench test. I *might* have an old KOP Thomas. I don't have the others. If you send them to me, I will test, post the results here, and then send them back. Put a note in the box saying "pump test" and give me your return address. Send to "AndyMark Pump Test, 2311 N. Washington St. Kokomo, IN 46901". Heck, we may even send the pump back with some surprises.

Spectrum is sending you a Viair 98C should be in the mail tomorrow. This was ordered from Amazon on January 28, 2016 and is labeled 1.10CFM at 13.8V. I'm really curious what it will actually test at for 12V, seeing as now the Viair website lists this model at 1.53 CFM.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

... the Viair website lists this model at 1.53 CFM.

That is an interesting performance curve.

[AllenGregoryIV]

It looks like the AndyMark 1.1 is similar to the Firestone 9284

Andy or Billfred have you tested the "THERMAL OVERLOAD PROTECTOR" that is described on the label? Is this something that might effect teams during matches?