[FTC]: NorCal Advancement

[wgardner]

IMHO, the Winning Alliance Captain should always, always get a guaranteed spot to advance to the next level at every tournament. Otherwise, robot performance is completely irrelevant!

As an aside, I've been pondering this problem with uneven advancement across tournaments for a while. I've recently written an FTC Qualifier Advancement Proposal for inter-tournament advancement based upon Weighted Ranks. See the proposal for a full explanation of what this is, why it's better, and examples of how advancement would have happened in Virginia had it been used last year compared to how advancement actually happened. I've been asked to generate comparison data for last year and this year so it can be considered for the next season.

I'd appreciate any constructive thoughts on the proposal. I might not-so-humbly suggest that NorCal could adopt this in place of their lottery approach, which would result in the Winning Alliance captains advancing due to their strong Weighted Ranks. MN could replace their ad-hoc system of advancing more teams early and fewer teams late with a system that advanced the top 3 spots (Inspire #1, Winning Captain, Inspire #2) at every tournament and then advancing remaining spots based on the Weighted Rank wildcard system at the end of the tournament season.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by wgardner

IMHO, the Winning Alliance Captain should always, always get a guaranteed spot to advance to the next level at every tournament. Otherwise, robot performance is completely irrelevant!

As an aside, I've been pondering this problem with uneven advancement across tournaments for a while. I've recently written an FTC Qualifier Advancement Proposal for inter-tournament advancement based upon Weighted Ranks. See the proposal for a full explanation of what this is, why it's better, and examples of how advancement would have happened in Virginia had it been used last year compared to how advancement actually happened. I've been asked to generate comparison data for last year and this year so it can be considered for the next season.

I'd appreciate any constructive thoughts on the proposal. I might not-so-humbly suggest that NorCal could adopt this in place of their lottery approach, which would result in the Winning Alliance captains advancing due to their strong Weighted Ranks. MN could replace their ad-hoc system of advancing more teams early and fewer teams late with a system that advanced the top 3 spots (Inspire #1, Winning Captain, Inspire #2) at every tournament and then advancing remaining spots based on the Weighted Rank wildcard system at the end of the tournament season.

That doesn't appear to be publicly viewable. I've sent a request for access, but maybe you want to make it view-only to anyone with a link.

[wgardner]

Sorry about that. I updated the link in the original post to a shareable one. But here it is again. Let me know if you still can't view it.

[wgardner]

One other strange thing about the NorCal strategy: you have a better chance of advancing if you're at a tournament without a host, which motivates you to pick tournaments without hosts.

In Virginia, the two tournaments that have hosts at least still advance the same number of non-host teams as the other tournaments, so teams aren't motivated to avoid the hosted tournaments. [Aside: If anything, there's a slight advantage with the current advancement system to attending a Virginia tournament with a host, because there's a slight chance that the host team will also be high in the advancement order which results in a team lower in the order getting to advance.]

[NRLeuenb]

Originally Posted by Whatever

As it is, the next team in line at the earlier tournament becomes a lottery team. If they were instead listed as qualified, the next team in line at the later tournament would qualify. It skews the qualification spots to the earlier tournaments. I think that is what the scheme is but I don't find it clear.

That's a valid point. However, I agree with wgardner:

Originally Posted by wgardner

IMHO, the Winning Alliance Captain should always, always get a guaranteed spot to advance to the next level at every tournament. Otherwise, robot performance is completely irrelevant!

It's not a robotics competition if the winning robot doesn't get to advance. I'm not sure what it is at that point.

I appreciate the work that hosts teams do, don't get me wrong. I did robotics in VA, and my team put on a 48-team qualifier every year. It was a lot of work, and host teams help give others a chance to compete at more competitions. That being said, a host team shouldn't advance at the expense of a team who put their heart and soul, and countless hours, into building an amazing robot.

[NRLeuenb]

Originally Posted by wgardner

One other strange thing about the NorCal strategy: you have a better chance of advancing if you're at a tournament without a host, which motivates you to pick tournaments without hosts.

In Virginia, the two tournaments that have hosts at least still advance the same number of non-host teams as the other tournaments, so teams aren't motivated to avoid the hosted tournaments. [Aside: If anything, there's a slight advantage with the current advancement system to attending a Virginia tournament with a host, because there's a slight chance that the host team will also be high in the advancement order which results in a team lower in the order getting to advance.]

That's very true-- but its difficult to pick non-host events when there's only two, and early in the season. From my own experience in VA, where there are fewer, larger qualifiers, even though competition is more fierce, winning an award or the competition means more, because you get to advance. In NorCal, it's an interesting tidbit to stick on your resume.

[wgardner]

As an exercise, I made up a google sheet that compares the existing NorCal advancement criteria with the criteria in my proposal. You can see it using this link.

The Input/ Existing Method worksheet essentially shows the advanced teams from the official NorCal FTC Advancement page. Highlighted teams advance. Teams in red text are the host teams. Teams that qualify multiple times at a tournament are highlighted in bright yellow.

At the time of this post, 18 teams (including 11 hosts) have qualified as indicated by a team having a Star on the official page and by highlighting in my google sheet. 2 Winning Alliance captains at 16-team tournaments are not among those 18 teams (though the advancement in the third 16-team San Jose #1 tournament went all the way down to Inspire #3!).

The Output/ Proposed Method worksheet shows the proposed method.

At the time of this post, the proposed method is trying to allocate the same 18 advancement spots. At the 28 team Saratoga tournament, teams down to Inspire #3 would advance (as in the existing method). The differences are that all Winning Alliance captains would advance, the Inspire #2s at the three 16-team tournaments would be in a tie for the final spot, and there would be no advancement below Inspire #2 at the three 16-team tournaments.

I'll try to keep this google sheet updated as more NorCal results come in throughout the season.

If I were king of NorCal FTC, I think I'd guarantee that all hosts, Inspire winners, and Winning Alliance captains advance the day of the tournament and also Inspire #2s for the 28 team tournaments [that would total 45 slots = 45 teams if there were absolutely no overlaps] and then use the proposed Weighted Ranking system to fill any remaining Wildcard spots at the end of the season.

[driesman]

In Maryland, the host team does not advance. This was put in place last year and even with that, all qualifiers still have host teams. The change was made to provide more competition. Another nice change last year was going to a 48 team State Championship. This allowed (assuming a big enough qualifier) the full winning alliance to advance in addition to the three Inspire winners. I like this very much because it always seemed a shame that despite a team effort, only the Captain advanced.

As for NorCal, I think it is part of the growing trend within FIRST that de-emphasizing the competition. The lottery system put into place for semi-worlds makes it possible for teams to advance without a working robot or an engineering notebook. One only needs to compete in a single event. What happened to earning your reward?? Personally, I would stop at East Supers which is an excellent event with good competition, great camaraderie and top notch staff. Though I suspect that if the team makes it to Semi-Worlds, it will be hard to say no.

Makes me very sad to see FIRST moving into the everyone gets a ribbon camp. I've seen the competitive nature of the program drive teams to do amazing things. Crystal ball is cloudy for the future.