NeveRest 60 in FRC

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

You might be recalling incorrectly - we were allowed to modify the globe motor geartrain. Many times we glued the planetaries to the sun and ground the outside ring teeth off to remove a reduction.

You're probably right, the globes got removed right about when I started doing things other than pure software. I'm pretty sure window motors were no mods though.

[marccenter]

Dear CD,

As a robot inspector last year, I found one team had used the AM NeveRest motors on their robot so I had to have them remove the part before competing (and felt bad in the process because I suppose another inspector may have missed it, but felt better realizing that it may have gotten caught in a later inspection and they had ample time to swap out before their first match)

So, from an inspection standpoint, this solves potential issues when FRC teams borrow FTC components that may be illegal. To me, this is the biggest win for FIRST by making the inspectors job easier and teams less likely to make this mistake.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by marccenter

Dear CD,

As a robot inspector last year, I found one team had used the AM NeveRest motors on their robot so I had to have them remove the part before competing (and felt bad in the process because I suppose another inspector may have missed it, but felt better realizing that it may have gotten caught in a later inspection and they had ample time to swap out before their first match)

So, from an inspection standpoint, this solves potential issues when FRC teams borrow FTC components that may be illegal. To me, this is the biggest win for FIRST by making the inspectors job easier and teams less likely to make this mistake.

Every year we have to tell teams a motor they are using is illegal. We still catch Globe motors everyone now and then, I caught a couple Fisher price motors last year.

This will help the problem some but it won't cure it.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

You might be recalling incorrectly - we were allowed to modify the globe motor geartrain. Many times we glued the planetaries to the sun and ground the outside ring teeth off to remove a reduction.

With the general allowance of 'automotive motors' how does a team determine what is deemed an integral gearbox such as the window motor vs a non-integral gearbox like we saw with the mini-bot motors etc. For example I saw teams use door lock actuators last year, those have an integral gearbox. Could it be modified? The rules were not very clear last year, did anyone get an answer?

[bobbysq]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Every year we have to tell teams a motor they are using is illegal. We still catch Globe motors everyone now and then, I caught a couple Fisher price motors last year.

How does that even happen? Globe motors have been illegal for years, right?

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by bobbysq

How does that even happen? Globe motors have been illegal for years, right?

The same way you get motors which were never FRC-legal:

:= FALSE;

Edit: I see we have one two on the way from FIRST Choice! It's always easier to see how something might fit a job if you have one in hand. A window-motor class gear motor with FRC style mountings and a built-in encoder - sounds like we'll find a good use for it! (I'd be surprised if they couldn't raise those flags in the field drawings the past couple of years which weren't used.)

Edit2: Considering FTC motors to be smoke generators is a function not only of the only FTC motors previously allowed, but the function they were required to fill, and the value of being a hundredth of a second faster than the other guy. Not even excepting the can grabbers in 2015, my impression of reading old posts and attending Karthik's game strategies presentation in 2015 is that the minibot race for LogoMotion was the steepest arms race in FRC history. Liquid nitrogen baths - really?

[Cog]

Idk about these being smoke generators. The tetrix motors definitely let it out easily. But these can stall for like a minute and stay fully functional.

[Cog]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

I don't have test data on this motor, yet. As the one who published data on the 2011 Minibot motors (aka smoke generators), I believe that the new motor is a significant improvement; this is based on a visual inspection of an early sample motor at Andy's desk during a visit to AM a few months ago, and on review of the data furnished by the motor manufacturer. I expect the Andymark engineers will be publishing their own test results soon. We should all suspend judgement about the NeveRest 60 for a while -- AM data will go a long way toward building my understanding of its real capability, and of course a season of in-situ performance will go even further.

All that said, there is data already available on the AM site. And that data supports what Billfred said above.

I worked with these motors all through my time in FTC. They can stall for more than a minute with no sweat. These motors seem weak until you take a look at all the simple mechanisms people use in FTC to great effect.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by Cog

...smoke generators...

I have to assume the OP who brought it up didn't remember the 2011 motors as Tetrix motors, just as "FTC" motors, and now that an "FTC" motor is coming to FRC, has a bad but vague memory.

I'm told we managed to get smoke from a Neverest 60 (I wasn't in the room), but that was from having too-long face mounting screws, and it still works fine.

[Andrew Schuetze]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

RE: Neverest 60 gearmotors (all the Neverest motors are the same motor with different gearboxes, correct me if I'm wrong, Billfred)

I too defer to Billfred. Be careful just a bit as your statement is probably 90% true. AM has a new Neverest 3.7 motor gearbox combo which has a different output configuration due to the low reduction gearbox plus I've just read the recent product release on the 3.7 stating it has a different motor encoder magnet setup. So yes you are correct that the neverest line of 20:1 , 40:1, & 60:1 are all the same motor with a different gearbox.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schuetze

I too defer to Billfred. Be careful just a bit as your statement is probably 90% true. AM has a new Neverest 3.7 motor gearbox combo which has a different output configuration due to the low reduction gearbox plus I've just read the recent product release on the 3.7 stating it has a different motor encoder magnet setup. So yes you are correct that the neverest line of 20:1 , 40:1, & 60:1 are all the same motor with a different gearbox.

You're correct, there's a slight difference to the NR3.7 encoder that we didn't catch. But the differences between the 20, 40, and 60 should be limited to the gearhead.

(Standard disclaimer: Only the NeveRest 60 has been announced as legal for the 2017 FIRST Robotics Competition at this time by virtue of it being in FIRST Choice. FIRST has not announced whether the other NeveRest motors will be legal, nor whether removing the gearhead will be a legal modification.)

[bobbysq]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

I have to assume the OP who brought it up didn't remember the 2011 motors as Tetrix motors, just as "FTC" motors, and now that an "FTC" motor is coming to FRC, has a bad but vague memory.

I was under the impression that minibots were to be made only of FTC legal parts, and this motor is primarily used in FTC. However, I assume if minibots were to come back, AndyMark would have been briefed by FIRST to stock more FTC supplies, and they'd be staying quiet on this thread.

I was not around for the 2011 game, nor have I read the manual, I just watched the reveal video.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by bobbysq

I was under the impression that minibots were to be made only of FTC legal parts, and this motor is primarily used in FTC. However, I assume if minibots were to come back, AndyMark would have been briefed by FIRST to stock more FTC supplies, and they'd be staying quiet on this thread.

I was not around for the 2011 game, nor have I read the manual, I just watched the reveal video.

Minibots were made of FTC legal parts, but I don't think the Neverest existed in 2011. Also, the list of FTC-legal parts has greatly expanded, and is now more like mini-FRC than anything.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

Minibots were made of FTC legal parts, but I don't think the Neverest existed in 2011. Also, the list of FTC-legal parts has greatly expanded, and is now more like mini-FRC than anything.

Having worked as a minibot inspector at CMP The ONLY thing from FTC on most minibots were the motors and the batteries.... I believe those were the only FTC parts that was required.... (if you wanted the minibot to have motors that is....) You could use an FTC motor controller and an NXT if you wished along with other FTC/TETRIX parts, sensors and even FTC servos.

Most minibots were completely fabricated from FRC legal parts listed in the minibot rule with the only FTC parts being the motors (allowed 2) and the FTC battery. There were some minibots that were made differently but in the end it was a weight game.... magnets, motors, battery.... some kind of switch or switches to turn on and off.... pretty minimal.

You are correct that the Neverest motor was not available in 2011. Only the Tetrix motor...

[Knufire]

There was a laundry list of materials you were allowed to make minibots out of, quoted below.

Originally Posted by 2011 FRC Game Manual: R92

The following items are the only permitted materials for use on the MINIBOTS:

A. TETRIX components that are not in violation of any other rules, (Tetrix components are listed in Approved Tetrix Parts at www.usfirst.org/frc/competitionmanual),
B. no more than two motors (PN W739083/W739023) and an unlimited number of Tetrix servos),
C. no more than one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057) except the 20A fuse may be replaced with an equivalent type of lower amperage,
D. No more than one HiTechnic DC motor controllers,
E. No more than one NXT controller with the Bluetooth functionality disabled,
F. Polycarbonate,
G. Polycarbonate glue,
H. Raw welding rod, aluminum sheet, 90° angle, u-channel, tube, bar, that is not sold in preperforated or pre-punched form.
I. rivets,
J. non-metallic rope or cord,
K. wire nuts, solder, and crimps,
L. cable ties,
M. limit switches,
N. no more than two common household light switches,
O. electrical hookup wire,
P. non-slip pad,
Q. PVC or CPVC pipe and fittings,
R. PVC cement or cleaner,
S. Mechanical fasteners (e.g. screws, bolts, etc),
T. Loctite or similar thread-locking product,
U. Rubber bands,
V. Surgical tubing,
W. Electrical tape and shrink tubing,
X. PWM extension cables,
Y. Universal security clips to hold the PWM connectors together,
Z. Hook and loop fastener (may not be used as tape),
AA. Magnets,
BB. NXT compatible sensors and related connectors/cables,
CC. Grease, and
DD. Non-functional decorations.

Non-slip pad was literally anything marketed as non-slip pad.