Would it be a Penalty?

[tjwolter]

Viewing last year's matches I was struck by how often a high center of gravity robot would tip over and be effectively done for the match. Discussing this in a design sense with my team an interesting question came up. If you went over and flipped an opposing team's robot back upright, would you get a penalty for doing so?

Clearly there would be times when this would be tactically unwise, but if your alliance was ahead by a mile it would seem to be a nice gesture of Gracious Professionalism.

Would it cost you?

Tacitus

[RoboChair]

It would depend on exactly how you were able to do it. Most cases you would get a penalty I believe, there is a good chance of damage if not done just right.

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by tjwolter

Viewing last year's matches I was struck by how often a high center of gravity robot would tip over and be effectively done for the match. Discussing this in a design sense with my team an interesting question came up. If you went over and flipped an opposing team's robot back upright, would you get a penalty for doing so?

Clearly there would be times when this would be tactically unwise, but if your alliance was ahead by a mile it would seem to be a nice gesture of Gracious Professionalism.

Would it cost you?

Tacitus

*Standard Warning about 2016 rules not necessarily applying to 2017*

I could see how a ref could reasonably call G23:

Originally Posted by G23

Fallen (i.e. tipped over) ROBOTS attempting to right themselves (either by themselves or with assistance from a partner ROBOT) have one ten (10) second grace period in which they may not be contacted by an opponent ROBOT. This protection lasts for either ten (10) seconds or until the protected ROBOT has completed the righting operation, whichever comes first.

Violation: FOUL. If intentional, YELLOW CARD

Since it's deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage to have a fair game, I sincerely doubt a ref would call this. It seems like your more concerned about G24:

Originally Posted by G24

Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy, RED CARD

It only mentions destruction or inhibition by tipping, which this is the exact opposite of, again, a ref COULD call it, but it would be very non-graciously professional. You seem to mention that it could be inside their courtyard (though I can' imagine why, most robots would go through their own secret passage or low bar to get into their own courtyard, since it would give you no points), but it would be under the ruling of G26 then.

Originally Posted by G26

At any given time, only one (1) ROBOT may contact the carpet or BATTER inside their COURTYARD.
Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, TECH FOUL

They might also call G22 (no pinning rule, I won't copy it over), but unless they flipped over onto a wall, I doubt it would be pinning. Even if it was so, I would doubt the ref would be willing to give you a penalty for putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Is there some rule I'm missing? This seems pretty cut and dry...

[RoboChair]

If you are just trying to bump into them to try and get them back upright I feel the ref might be unclear as to your intentions. It is entirely possible that it could appear hostile. Remember that the ref must judge your intention through your actions, not your actions through your intentions.

If you have some way of flipping them back up that is super obvious that that is what you are trying to accomplish, like flipping up a manipulator that you are trying to get under them, then you are probably okay. Your mileage WILL vary depending on your ref.

[Chris is me]

G23 does not specify intent. It does not matter if you are trying to right them or trying to keep them down, you cannot touch them in the ten second window. Once the window passes, it isn't necessarily illegal, but otherwise, back off.

[tjwolter]

As it would come down to the mood of an individual judge, and to whether you inadvertently damage the robot you are trying to Graciously Help, it sounds as if it is probably not a great idea.

Tacitus

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by tjwolter

As it would come down to the mood of an individual judge, and to whether you inadvertently damage the robot you are trying to Graciously Help, it sounds as if it is probably not a great idea.

Tacitus

Ref not Judge.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by tjwolter

As it would come down to the mood of an individual judge, and to whether you inadvertently damage the robot you are trying to Graciously Help, it sounds as if it is probably not a great idea.

Tacitus

I think regardless of the mood of the ref if, the team caused a penalty as per the years rule book. It is a penalty. Rules are there for a reason. Refs are there to interpret and enforce the rules not pick and choose when they think the rule has good intentions.

In the end. Just don't do it. No matter how gp you think you are being.

[Jon Stratis]

I'm having trouble visualizing a mechanism that could be used for righting a fallen robot that wouldn't risk damaging said robot. With the wide variety of designs, just about any mechanism that is purposefully inserted into a robot in order to exert significant force would run the risk of damage. I, for one, would not want to damage someone else's robot in the interest of trying to look good and kind towards my opponent.

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

G23 does not specify intent. It does not matter if you are trying to right them or trying to keep them down, you cannot touch them in the ten second window. Once the window passes, it isn't necessarily illegal, but otherwise, back off.

G23 also does not specify that the partner robot has to be on the same alliance. If you are trying to right them, wouldn't you be considered that partner robot and thus be at least somewhat protected from this rule? There's no rule that says you can't touch a overturned robot, just only once it's gotten back up.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid

G23 also does not specify that the partner robot has to be on the same alliance. If you are trying to right them, wouldn't you be considered that partner robot and thus be at least somewhat protected from this rule? There's no rule that says you can't touch a overturned robot, just only once it's gotten back up.

Partner is not defined, so use the common English meaning. It can very reasonably interpreted to mean a robot on the same alliance. And remember, only the ref has to be reasonable.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid

G23 also does not specify that the partner robot has to be on the same alliance. If you are trying to right them, wouldn't you be considered that partner robot and thus be at least somewhat protected from this rule? There's no rule that says you can't touch a overturned robot, just only once it's gotten back up.

It would be very difficult to argue that a robot on the opposing alliance is a partner ROBOT when the term is in contrast to opponent ROBOT.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I think regardless of the mood of the ref if, the team caused a penalty as per the years rule book. It is a penalty. Rules are there for a reason. Refs are there to interpret and enforce the rules not pick and choose when they think the rule has good intentions.

In the end. Just don't do it. No matter how gp you think you are being.

The discussion is IF it is a penalty to right a tipped robot that is not on your alliance. Whether or not you should do it is another question that is dependent on factors including chance of penalty.

So...
Bkeeneykid and Chris got the first part of the rules dead on. If you make contact within 10 seconds of them tipping over, you should be called for a foul, and likely a yellow card. (There's a reason that I say "should be"--it should be "will be", though.)

The question then becomes, what happens after 10 seconds?

I really don't think that G24 would come into play, or you'd get a very strict ref to call it. "Strategies aimed at" is not "actions of", although "actions of" can show if there are "strategies aimed at". In other words, if you could do it in a way that would show that you did not have a strategy aimed at incapacitating or disabling, you would probably get away with it. HOWEVER, you would need to be VERY CAREFUL because of the high chance for damage, no matter how inadvertent! Getting a manipulator over the bumpers would probably be your best bet, depending on the game.

Now, then there's another item here: In some years, there has been a rule against making contact inside the Frame Perimeter. If such a rule exists, you'll need to follow it. That's going to be rather difficult...

You'll notice that I'm ignoring field constraints. If they're in a place where you could get called for a foul based on robot position, bad idea. Otherwise, who cares?


tl;dr: If you mess up, or don't wait 10 seconds, you risk a foul+yellow card. If you do wait that time and can successfully do the move without damage (or otherwise breaking the rules), no foul should be given. Remember that all robot contact rules apply at all times unless otherwise noted.

[GeeTwo]

I can certainly think of a number of robot combinations where one robot can right another fairly safely. This happened (within the alliance obviously) regularly in Recycle Rush, as one robot would use its forklift or other tote lifter to lift another robot to a vertical position. There were probably a few robots this year who could have used their climbing mechanism to right a downed robot, especially if it had fairly solid structure near an anchor point which was reasonably similar in size to the rung, and others which might have been able to use their "self-righting" mechanisms to help a number of other robots onto their wheels.

Here's a scenario where it's more of a coopertition thing than an "overinflated sense of GP" thing, from STRONGHOLD:

At some point during the match, a blue robot doing courtyard defense is knocked over onto the BATTER. There is no legal way another blue robot can enter the courtyard to right it.

Ten-plus seconds have passed, and it's getting close to the end of the match. Red has put enough boulders in the blue tower to bring its strength down to (or below) zero, and all of the red robots are mobile. Red is well ahead on points. But there's this blue robot on the batter, wedged in such a way that it cannot easily be pushed out, but which can be righted by a mechanism at red's disposal.

If red alliance can right the blue robot before the rules about contacting an opposing robot in the courtyard and intentionally drawing fouls become an issue, BOTH alliances could benefit from righting that poor blue robot. Red decides to right the blue robot, which drives away in time to avoid drawing a foul (and perhaps complete a challenge of the red tower). While I will not deny that there will be a ref or two out there who might call this a foul, it's worth the risk for that extra qualification point.

[Alex Chamberlin]

I'd risk a foul almost always if I though we wouldn't damage the robot, but never a red card, and probably not a yellow card.