Inter-District Play in 2017

[marshall]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

Nope, and it should be fun to watch because if the out of district teams completely dominate the local teams, causing many to miss out on advancement to district champs, it may cause FIRST to put hard limits on how many slots at a district event can go to teams outside a district.

I feel like this is one of those things that some local district teams will complain about because they don't quite understand how district points work but it isn't actually true and I suspect the impact of out of district teams on district events will be minimal overall.

Yes, out of district teams coming in have the ability to disrupt the event as any outside force does but they can't progress to that district championship. Chances are the top teams in the district will still be the top teams in the district regardless of the outside teams coming in. The outside teams also contribute $1000 to the local district, and they had to wait a really long time to sign up for the event to begin with.

But hey, what do I know? I want to get rid of bags.

[Theseusgoats]

I knew my post would cause some controversy. I'm simply saying that, since there are so few teams in Indiana to begin with, for teams to be superseded by Michigan teams would actually affect their district points overall. Due to the margin of district points being so low, at least judging from last year, every point counts. Not only that, teams may create specific strategies, specifically during elims that really only apply to the MI teams. This not only wastes time, but resources as well. Obviously we want as many teams as possible to keep the event interesting, but it would be a shame if the level of play for IN teams just because we have so many MI teams going. Again, I respect all the teams coming.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

I knew my post would cause some controversy. I'm simply saying that, since there are so few teams in Indiana to begin with, for teams to be superseded by Michigan teams would actually affect their district points overall. Due to the margin of district points being so low, at least judging from last year, every point counts.

Unless the Michigan teams somehow rank 1-8, then all pick each other, then proceed to have only their alliances in the semi's the impact will hopefully be minimal.

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

Not only that, teams may create specific strategies, specifically during elims that really only apply to the MI teams. This not only wastes time, but resources as well. .

Do you not plan on having to deal with the 82 minimum Michigan teams if your team goes to champs? Because all things being equal about 1/5 of all the teams at North Champs will be from Michigan meaning most likely you will have a Michigan team in every match. Call me crazy but getting a taste before hand of what to expect at champs (like we did this year seeing both 118 and 16 at Rocket City and Newton) is crazy valuable down the line.

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

Obviously we want as many teams as possible to keep the event interesting, but it would be a shame if the level of play for IN teams just because we have so many MI teams going. Again, I respect all the teams coming.

I think there is a word missing here, but my big pet peeve about all this, is before inter-district play sign up all the open slots became waitlisted, I am guessing the event runner would have prioritized Indiana teams if they signed up. So either not enough wanted a 3rd play or they couldn't afford it. If it is the former then unfortunately the only way to solve this is to grow the district so there is less waitlist spots. If it is the latter then the out of district teams will help raise funds within the district to hopefully eventually lead to the district offering financial aid to the teams.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

... , teams may create specific strategies, specifically during elims that really only apply to the MI teams.

Are you really a FIRSTer from Indiana?

The ones I have known since way-back-in-the-day are not just unafraid of Michigan teams, they welcome every chance they get to kick our behinds. Looking at the Michigan teams that have registered for the St. Joseph (Indiana) event, I see a nice correspondence with Indiana teams of similar strength and experience. Indiana has a proud history of strong, experienced teams that study the game carefully, build solid machines, have well trained drivers, scout effectively, and pick alliances strategically -- all to maximize their competitive results. Teams that are working to become strong and experienced (Git Gud*) watch those that already are, and learn. More good teams = BETTER EVENT, for the competition and for the real mission of FIRST.

I would welcome any or all of the Michigan teams that are registered for St. Joseph (Indiana) to come play with us in St. Joseph (Michigan) -- we are hosting our event the same weekend, and it is about one hour closer for Michigan teams. Last time I looked we still have a few spots open.**

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*


**I am not privy to FiM event roster assignments, so I don't know why those spots are still held.

[Theseusgoats]

Maybe I didn't word it properly... What I meant to say is that teams that have a low budget may take the time to cheescake or creates some fancy mechanism specifically for having a certain match against a MI team, which they may not be able to use in any other situations. Obviously this is no reason to not have MI teams in IN, it was just something that I thought of.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

Maybe I didn't word it properly... What I meant to say is that teams that have a low budget may take the time to cheescake or creates some fancy mechanism specifically for having a certain match against a MI team, which they may not be able to use in any other situations. Obviously this is no reason to not have MI teams in IN, it was just something that I thought of.

A brief history of cheese caking:

2016: A blocker could be built out of spare materials and a shirt (cost $0)
2015: Most cheese caked thing was bin grabbers which usually if they are going on your robot you aren't making (Cost $0)
2014: Something to bounce the ball off of for an inbounder such as a stick (cost $0)
2013: A blocker can be build out of spare materials and a shirt (cost $0)

Also adding any of those things to your robot should not only be useful in one match or tournament, sure you may take them off but you most likely will need them again.

I can't think of a single time someone cheesecaked something to use against a specific robot that would only be useful against said robot.

[Lil' Lavery]

Can someone explain the logic behind employing a different strategy against an out-of-district team? Assuming your goal is to maximize your team's place in your district's standings, you want the out-of-district teams to do well. That way your district opponents get fewer points.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

Maybe I didn't word it properly... What I meant to say is that teams that have a low budget may take the time to cheescake or creates some fancy mechanism specifically for having a certain match against a MI team, which they may not be able to use in any other situations. Obviously this is no reason to not have MI teams in IN, it was just something that I thought of.

That's some good stuff you got there... mind sharing it with the rest of us?

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by Billfred

I prefer this one.

Relevant

[Theseusgoats]

I remember specifically someone at an IN event making a mechanisms for elims, specifically against who they were facing against in the finals. But anyway, thats not really my main point. I'm not saying its wrong that MI teams are coming, in fact I love seeing new teams. I'm just saying that it might be disadvantageous for other teams. As someone previously said, for teams that it is their first event, it might be odd having so many teams which they may not see again in their next event, which is something that doesn't really happen in IN under the district system. It is not uncommon to see a certain team at more than one events throughout the season in IN due to the small number of teams present.

[Theseusgoats]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Can someone explain the logic behind employing a different strategy against an out-of-district team? Assuming your goal is to maximize your team's place in your district's standings, you want the out-of-district teams to do well. That way your district opponents get fewer points.

But the same can be said of your team as well can't it? I mean, for the most part, teams that do extra events for practice are usually strong competitors, meaning that they will tend to do well. If somehow the top 8 are all MI teams, then you can't get as many points and neither can anyone else at the competition. This gives them a disadvantage in comparison to teams who don't attend the event if they do end up being able to rank highly. Obviously, this is theoretical as it assumes that MI teams are somehow going to be head and shoulders above all the IN teams at the event.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

Obviously, this is theoretical as it assumes that MI teams are somehow going to be head and shoulders above all the IN teams at the event.

Seeing a pattern yet?

[Theseusgoats]

Originally Posted by marshall

Seeing a pattern yet?

Hey I'm just not trying to offend either the IN or the MI teams here.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Theseusgoats

Hey I'm just not trying to offend either the IN or the MI teams here.

Ok, fine. Let's switch out MI and IN for MAR and VA... and as we all know, I'm willing to offend everyone. Here is my version of your statement:

Obviously, this is theoretical as it assumes that MAR teams are somehow going to be head and shoulders above all the VA teams at the event.

Yep, pattern is this same. This is nonsense and conjecture and not based on any math, statistics, or actual analysis of the situation.

From my perspective, out of district teams are not likely to exert a considerable force of change on the order. From my admittedly limited knowledge of modeling, systems tend to drift toward equilibrium and given the relative ranking of teams in a district, the force of an out of district team or teams acting on the system is not going to change the ranking of the top teams in the district. It's going to end up the same regardless given that out of district teams cannot play in the DCMP for that district so the relative ranking of teams within the district remains.

I'll happily yield this point if you or someone can show me something more concrete than "maybe/probably/somehow/in theory" it could happen.

EDIT: And I really hope for the sake of this community that most people don't see it as "outside teams come in and rob the proper placed teams of their rightful place in a district" because if they do then FRC is about to become very isolated. In the past few months I've been reminded twice by people in the FRC community that I respect a lot that our worlds have gotten smaller (While trying to organize a multi-state workshop for FRC teams no less). No longer will teams from NC compete regularly against teams from VA and SC.... and that makes me sad and at least a few other people seem to be sad about it too. If we contribute to this isolationist attitude by thinking that somehow outsider teams coming in makes our own teams less competitive then we're headed for some dark times in FRC. We need to be welcoming of these outside teams, not pooping on them because #MFGA and #BuildADistrictWall sounds good.

[Taylor]

As a supporter of Indiana robot builders, I'd like to say the following about interdistrict play in 2017:

Bring it.
I ain't skeerd.