Robot in 3 Days 2017

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by EricH

I would be highly interested in a little challenge. I don't know if it can be pulled off, but...

Any Ri3D robots that remain functional (and give-or-take unmodified--modify to be "legal", for a given offseason's value of "legal", but without further iteration) get entered into one or more offseason events, either as pre-rookie robots or as second robots or as "house" robots.

I think you can see where this is going...

The challenge is to see how an Ri3D robot would end up in a competition environment. Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to do that at an official competition event, but at an offseason you can get away with a lot of stuff. If they all end up at the bottom of the stack, then there's a pretty good argument that they're not as "upsetting the system" as anybody thinks. If they end up at the top, then the argument goes the other way. My guess is they'll end up in the middle: above the BLT-types and below the iterated robots.

The GreenHorns have actually done this the past two years. We've worked with 4607 to bring our Ri3D robot to a pre-rookie team. The pre-rookie team works with 4607 to build bumpers for the robot which gives the team great experience. After the bumpers are made, our robot has been entered in a couple of the Minnesota offseason events including the Minnesota Robotics Invitational (MRI) and Minne Mini.

The rookie team then competes with our Ri3D robot while learning to scout, market their team, etc. from 4607. Considering the robot is controlled by a pre-rookie team that doesn't fully understand the game, that may skew the results slightly, but our robots have been low to middle of the pack in each event.

I would think if the robot were controlled by somebody with a decent amount of drive practice and an understanding of the game, it would be a late pick at most events.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

I'd love to see this just because I think it'd be a lot of fun as well. Also, the logistics would be difficult, but it'd be awesome to get 6 Ri3D bots at one event and let them duke it out.

This was also attempted in 2015 (albeit on a far smaller scale). 'Snow Problem (from the University of Minnesota) and The GreenHorns (from NDSU) met at 4607's high school to do a demonstration of both robots driving around on a makeshift field. We met up and filmed and had a great time and then realized our camera setup failed... so none of driving was recorded.

I would love to meet up with Snow Problem again this year, but we run into the problem of missing the first week of the semester... In fact, The GreenHorns' team members are already missing the first day of classes and most likely the second day as well (going to class after having 5 hours of sleep over a 4 day period isn't the best idea). If there was interest, perhaps we could set up a meeting the following weekend?

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by tjwolter

Umm...how much would a young team learn by just copying an admittedly cool robot? We are supposed to be training Engineers not RetroEngineers. Or strictly speaking, just well trained Robot Jockeys.

As a mentor I would be much happier with a crazy, innovative but ultimately less or even unsuccessful design.

T. Wolter

As I reread my own post, I realize the "too proud" bit came off a little harsh. The reason I worded it as such and agree with that sentiment is because I have fallen victim to that mistake. You mention a crazy, innovative robot that ends up being less successful. I've built one of those, and I'm immensely proud of it. Our 2015 bot was very unique in design and execution, but it wasn't near as successful as we hoped or thought. But I still learned a lot from designing and building that robot, and I'm not trying to discourage those designs. However, our 2014 bot was neither innovative or successful. It was just poorly designed and even more poorly built. I learned very little from that robot, and I wish I could go back and borrow more heavily from Ri3D or many other resources that I now know about to develop the base of the design for that year.

Either way, I think it's all a moot point if the students aren't taught the engineering behind any of those decisions. If students decide to borrow heavily from Ri3D, then the mentors can use that opportunity to teach the students how and when to "steal from the best," and when to "invent the rest." Then they can teach students how to optimize their design and iterate to improve performance and reliability. If students decide to strike it out on their own and go with a very innovative design, then the mentors should take that opportunity to teach better prototyping skills to iron out all the unknowns of a unique design. Then they can teach students how to compete and exist in a niche and how to market themselves as a unique and innovative solution.

So in the end, I think it's just two different situations that the mentors can take advantage of and teach the students valuable skills through different scenarios.

[tjwolter]

I also did not mean to sound harsh. Last year my rookie team was quite impressed with Ri3d but decided to go in other directions. I think it would be great to have far out design ideas every year....even if it means several total failures for every astonishing success.

T. Wolter

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by KSPRUL

I'm sure this will be an unpopular perspective....but here goes.

As a long term supporter of FIRST and as a mentor of FRC teams in the New York area I find myself reminiscing for a time when students could not just browse for an answer to the challenges set by FIRST.

No disrespect meant to the engineers and mentors taking part in robot in 3 days. Just my 2 cents.

While I have some issues with this perspective (big wonder why, I help run 'Snow Problem), as we enter another season of Ri3D I do appreciate the consistent amount of push-back Ri3D gets. I think it's a great thing that the community consistently pushes us to be a positive part of the FIRST season. I know we've had a number of discussions on 'Snow Problem that revolved around the fundamental question of how we could positively affect teams. While on some level disagreement is inevitable, it is something that has pushed us to try new things in order to give back to this community.

[dradel]

Originally Posted by tjwolter

"So either teams are too proud to just copy Ri3D and hone their reliability and driver skill to field a competitive robot, or teams aren't able to translate the design they see in a video into an equally competitive robot."

Umm...how much would a young team learn by just copying an admittedly cool robot? We are supposed to be training Engineers not RetroEngineers. Or strictly speaking, just well trained Robot Jockeys.

As a mentor I would be much happier with a crazy, innovative but ultimately less or even unsuccessful design.

T. Wolter

there is a bunch to be learned from ri3d !! even if it is a "copy" the way certain gear boxes work, pneumatics, sensors, the list goes on. I mean depending how much exposure the "young team" has had they may not know about all the hardware and such that is available from places like andymark and vex.

i mean lets be honest here the rookie kop gives you just about enough to get in trouble and not much more.

[gblake]

Just a reminder.

The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

Obviously, anyone, on any side of this discussion, is welcome to use it to support their position, or their plans for the season.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by gblake

Just a reminder. Obviously, anyone, on any side of this discussion, is welcome too use it to support their position, or their plans for the season.

Exactly. I believe Ri3D is just an opportunity for experienced FIRST participants to mentor and inspire FRC teams around the world that might not otherwise receive the help.

[dardeshna]

I don't think this has been mentioned, but I personally found Ri3D helpful and fun to watch as a freshman new to FRC. Gave some ideas and was definitely was a good resource to get ideas flowing, which is bit harder when you don't have a year or two under your belt.

[NRuzek]

I feel like it would be ideal if Ri3D didn't correspond with Kickoff. Like if they did a different competition maybe before the season starts, to inspire new teams without affecting design choice for the upcoming season.

[cbale2000]

Debates aside, I do hope Ri3D makes it easier to find the streams and YouTube videos from the various teams this year. The past few years you really had to go digging for content for some of the teams.

[Xavbro]

Originally Posted by EricH

I would be highly interested in a little challenge. I don't know if it can be pulled off, but...

Any Ri3D robots that remain functional (and give-or-take unmodified--modify to be "legal", for a given offseason's value of "legal", but without further iteration) get entered into one or more offseason events, either as pre-rookie robots or as second robots or as "house" robots.

I think you can see where this is going...

The challenge is to see how an Ri3D robot would end up in a competition environment. Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to do that at an official competition event, but at an offseason you can get away with a lot of stuff. If they all end up at the bottom of the stack, then there's a pretty good argument that they're not as "upsetting the system" as anybody thinks. If they end up at the top, then the argument goes the other way. My guess is they'll end up in the middle: above the BLT-types and below the iterated robots.

This is actually how FRC 5829, Awtybots was started. My second year on Team oRyon (2015), we gave them the robot we completed for Ri3D to compete in several off season events as a pre-rookie team.

Here are the results from the events we competed in as 6587:

TRI - https://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2015txri
RoboReboot - https://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2015txrb
Texas Robot Roundup - https://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2015txrr

We gave them the robot and let them make modifications on their own as a means of training and teaching them the skills they would need for the upcoming FRC season. The kids enjoyed the experience and I think the robot held it's own against some really tough competition.

[loremtoastum]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Debates aside, I do hope Ri3D makes it easier to find the streams and YouTube videos from the various teams this year. The past few years you really had to go digging for content for some of the teams.

What started as my way to help make a multitwitch for Twitch-using Ri3D teams (and I'm sure theres a way to have multiple youtube videos together in a similar fashion...) turned into basically that + social media links so I can probably help with that in form of spreadsheet. There's not a lot of stuff for some of the new teams, especially Week 6 because they're kinda hard to search but there's a decent amount of info. A lot of it is based on old stream links/pages I pulled from social media and previous years but I'll be updating them as Ri3D continues. The Twitch ones (`Snow Problem and Green Horns) are certain though.

Anyone is free to add comments if they have more updated info!

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by KSPRUL

I'm sure this will be an unpopular perspective....but here goes.

As a long term supporter of FIRST and as a mentor of FRC teams in the New York area I find myself reminiscing for a time when students could not just browse for an answer to the challenges set by FIRST.

No disrespect meant to the engineers and mentors taking part in robot in 3 days. Just my 2 cents.

So what would be a preferable source for inspiration?
These are high school students and it is the 21st century where each of us can browse the equivalent of the Library at Alexandria in our hands.

What did your students do in the patinated past for the answers that you reminisce about? Popular Mechanics? The Encyclopedia Brittanica?

Credited to Isaac Newton but possibly from others: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
All "fresh" ideas are likely plagiarism in one form or another.
Isn't everything we invent/create a product of everything we've heard or seen?
Listen to Aaron Copland's symphonies.

The Ri3D program is an efficient program to introduce students to the engineering design process in an educational format (YouTube) that has become the "new normal".
They do a good job documenting their thought processes, design iteration, and manufacturing. It all occurs in that crucial week after Kickoff.
Although anecdotal, I believe their presence has improved the level of competition in FRC.

This is a resource that I am grateful for.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

What did your students do in the patinated past for the answers that you reminisce about? Popular Mechanics? The Encyclopedia Brittanica?

The Ri3D program is an efficient program to introduce students to the engineering design process in an educational format (YouTube) that has become the "new normal".
They do a good job documenting their thought processes, design iteration, and manufacturing. It all occurs in that crucial week after Kickoff.
Although anecdotal, I believe their presence has improved the level of competition in FRC.

It's not the medium (Youtube, the internet) that's bothersome to people who feel uneasy about Ri3D. It's the fact that fully formed and viable solutions to the specific challenge FIRST puts before us are available in short order. In prior years of FRC, and in a majority of real-world engineering problems, you are charged with a new problem which may resemble one you and others have faced before, but is also different in non-trivial ways; that's what makes it an unsolved problem rather than a solution waiting to be purchased. Of course you would look at past solutions to similar problems and build upon them, modifying them to fit the new problem -- that's part of the process. But being able to fill in the blanks and create something new, even if it's largely an act of combining the old in new ways, is also mandatory. Ri3D is a small step in taking this element as both a skillset and a learning experience as applied to FRC from "absolutely mandatory" to "optional depending on what your goals are," and that bothers many people.

Put another way: would FRC's educational and inspirational value would be unchanged if the game stayed the same every season, but the rules required us to build a new robot every year? Or is the fact that every team gets the experience of solving a previously unsolved problem an integral part of the educational and inspirational process, connected strongly to what we hope our students gain from the program?