Moving lift to put gear on peg easier

[MikLast]

When the gear is being loaded by the robot on the peg, is the Pilot able to move the Lift up? The idea is to move the lift up a bit to center it where the robot holds the gear to put the gear on the peg easier. From my readings i see nothing explicitly forbidding it, but im still not sure its fully okay. Is there any rules that forbid this?

[6401mark]

In the field videos they made it a huge deal that safety was a priority for human players on the field. I can't imagine they would allow for something like that if the robot and the human are in contact

[RoboChair]

You are correct, as written now it is allowable to move the lift while a robot interacts with it.

[Aidan H.]

I combed the rules, and though it emphasizes safety (and this act seems to not be very safe, strictly speaking) it does not lay out any explicit rules for the robot->lift->pilot exchange of the gear, other than it has to come up through the hole.

But of note, in the field walk-through videos it seems to say that "once the pilot has determined that the robot has safely put the gear on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot" (@0:57 here https://youtu.be/ZeOevMTC_rw?t=57s).

What confuses me is that this seems to be a significant hole in the rules, as it's the difference between a mostly passive system and a significantly more complicated active system. Though I would not be surprised if the GDC simply didn't think about it, and adds a rule prohibiting lift movement while a robot is touching the gear on the peg, there is a chance that they intentionally left the rule out to make the gear movement an easier task.

Does anyone else think it will be corrected? If so, doesn't it seems like quite a large rules change? Is there a precedent from previous years for a significant change like this?

[MikLast]

That thought also came to us as one of our groups talked about the idea. Personally this may be something that does need to be fixed, this could easily mess up someones robot (or a person if things go really wrong) if the LIFT gets yanked away.

[Cal578]

What's unsafe about a pilot moving the string a little while a robot attempts to load a gear? It seems to me that the worst that would happen is that the robot jiggles the spring, which transmits some of the jiggle to the string, so the pilot feels some jiggle and maybe loses grip of the string. That doesn't sound dangerous, so I think it makes sense that there's no rule prohibiting it.

[Ginger Bread]

I was also having this question and am very happy that there's nothing specifically against it

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Cal578

What's unsafe about a pilot moving the string a little while a robot attempts to load a gear? It seems to me that the worst that would happen is that the robot jiggles the spring, which transmits some of the jiggle to the string, so the pilot feels some jiggle and maybe loses grip of the string. That doesn't sound dangerous, so I think it makes sense that there's no rule prohibiting it.

at a minimum, if the driver loses grip on the lift handle, it will probably fall outside the porthole, and it would be illegal and unsafe to try to get it back. pilots must be very careful with handles!

FIRST almost always limits cases such that the robot and the human can't be touching game pieces at the same time. since there is a field element in between them, and the pilot is also connected through a flexible element, it may remain as it is currently written. I know it was in our discussion that the pilot would lift the gear out of the robot with the lift, though thinking about it more, that's not a good idea if the pilot is not paying attention.

[GeeTwo]

Another thing to note is that the "peg" that the robot must place the gear upon is actually a spring, not a solid item. It can presumably be easily deflected up/down/left/right. 3946 currently intends to exploit this feature in our gear hanger.

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by engunneer

at a minimum, if the driver loses grip on the lift handle, it will probably fall outside the porthole, and it would be illegal and unsafe to try to get it back. pilots must be very careful with handles!

FIRST almost always limits cases such that the robot and the human can't be touching game pieces at the same time. since there is a field element in between them, and the pilot is also connected through a flexible element, it may remain as it is currently written. I know it was in our discussion that the pilot would lift the gear out of the robot with the lift, though thinking about it more, that's not a good idea if the pilot is not paying attention.

If the pilot isn't paying attention, they shouldn't be the pilot.

[Aur0r4]

I agree, while FIRST may (and will likely) issue some kind of overly conservative clarification on this issue (and it is a very good question), they idea that this is somehow dangerous is a massive stretch.

I'm a huge proponent of industrial safety and appreciate FIRST having to blend in real world industrial safety standards due to the fact that we are dealing with machines.....they aren't remote controlled bulldozers or mining equipment.

Much of what we must abide by likely originates from insurance requirements, not any eminent source of harm.

[andrewytiger]

Is the pilot allowed to raise the lift to a preferred height before the gear is hooked onto the lift? So could we lift the peg to 2ft for example and then hook the gear to it?

[guniv]

Our team is wondering this too. I can't find anything that says a pilot can't operate a lift unless a gear is on it.

[nickn_01]

There is no rule that prohibits the pilot from doing so. Which is something to take advantage of as you can have your gear in a fixed position to simplify the mechanism.


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[nixiebunny]

There are no words that I have seen in the rules, prohibiting pilots from operating the lift at any time. However, designing your robot to require pilot cooperation to dispense a gear will reduce the game playing speed. What if the pilot is doing something else at the time?