What's the best rope?

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by SpadeSeveren

My team has strongly considered using a certain climbing rope that has retroreflective fabrics weaved into it, to help with positioning, similar to the one shown here: http://searchgear.com/pmiretroreflectiverope.aspx

As an inspector, that rope would not pass my inspection and would be brought to the LRI as it contains glass beads (which are not fibers or flexible, per I04).

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by engunneer

As an inspector, that rope would not pass my inspection and would be brought to the LRI as it contains glass beads (which are not fibers or flexible, per I04).

And you would be wrong. Please read the whole rule. Assuming the linked rope would not extend up more than 12 inches from the point it is held is should be deemed legal. Glass is certainly non-metallic, and "fiber" can really mean anything.


IO4
D. consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying.

Blue note "Flexible means that if the ROPE is held at any point, it should not extend more than 12” above the point where it is held. ROPES are meant to be pulled, not pushed."

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

And you would be wrong. Please read the whole rule.

you'd be hard pressed to argue that glass beads are "flexible, non-metallic fibers". entirely means entirely. Sure, the linked rope likely meets the definition given for flexible, but the rule describes more properties of the rope than that. It would be legal IMO to have a rope made of glass fibers, as long as it also meets every other rule, such as safety rules.

also, it is never wrong for an inspector to bring a questionable item to the LRI for a ruling.

Lastly, I assure you that i have indeed read the rule multiple times. I have a few years of experience inspecting bots, and over a dozen years reading FRC rulebooks.

[Fusion_Clint]

The blue note explicitly tells you what flexible means in this context. You can be that guy if you need to be.

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

The blue note explicitly tells you what flexible means in this context. You can be that guy if you need to be.

yes, but the rule has other restrictions beyond "flexible". I would be shocked if this rope is not submitted as a Q&A question. that will give you a definitive answer. Until such an answer exists, it is Schrodinger's Glass Bead Rope.

please re-read your posts - who is being "That guy"? The one saying that he would check with an event official that has the power to make this ruling, or the one categorically stating someone else on the internet is wrong while having no official ruling to back it up?

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by engunneer

yes, but the rule has other restrictions beyond "flexible". I would be shocked if this rope is not submitted as a Q&A question. that will give you a definitive answer. Until such an answer exists, it is Schrodinger's Glass Bead Rope.

Your initial post on this subject disqualified the rope because a glass bead isn't flexible (even though glass is a liquid?) Blue note completely conflits with your definition of flexible.

A fiber is really just a small piece of anything. see webster below.


Definition of fiber
1
: a thread or a structure or object resembling a thread: as
a (1) : a slender root (as of a grass) (2) : an elongated tapering thick-walled plant cell void at maturity that imparts elasticity, flexibility, and tensile strength
b (1) : a strand of nerve tissue : axon, dendrite (2) : one of the filaments composing most of the intercellular matrix of connective tissue (3) : one of the elongated contractile cells of muscle tissue
c : a slender and greatly elongated natural or synthetic filament (as of wool, cotton, asbestos, gold, glass, or rayon) typically capable of being spun into yarn
d : mostly indigestible material in food that stimulates the intestine to peristalsis —called also bulk, roughage

So what exactly is your reason for saying this isn't legal?

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

You initial post on this subject disqualified the rope because a glass bead isn't flexible (even though glass is a liquid?) Blue note completely conflits with you definition of flexible.

Let's review the tape:

Originally Posted by engunneer

As an inspector, that rope would not pass my inspection and would be brought to the LRI as it contains glass beads (which are not fibers or flexible, per I04).

I was not saying the rope is not flexible. I was saying the glass beads that are a component of the rope are not themselves flexible, and they also not fibers. The rule (not the blue box) is pretty explicit. "consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers" seems pretty clear to me. If a flexible rope contains materials that are not flexible OR are metallic OR are not fibers, then the rope by definition does not "consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers"

On a side note, glass is not a liquid. (Reference)

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

A fiber is really just a small piece of anything. see webster below.


Definition of fiber
1
: a thread or a structure or object resembling a thread: as
a (1) : a slender root (as of a grass) (2) : an elongated tapering thick-walled plant cell void at maturity that imparts elasticity, flexibility, and tensile strength
b (1) : a strand of nerve tissue : axon, dendrite (2) : one of the filaments composing most of the intercellular matrix of connective tissue (3) : one of the elongated contractile cells of muscle tissue
c : a slender and greatly elongated natural or synthetic filament (as of wool, cotton, asbestos, gold, glass, or rayon) typically capable of being spun into yarn
d : mostly indigestible material in food that stimulates the intestine to peristalsis —called also bulk, roughage

So what exactly is your reason for saying this isn't legal?

does a small round glass bead resemble a thread? I would say no. That already disqualifies your definition at definition 1 before you even got to 1(c). in any case, 1(c) calls for a "slender and greatly elongated" filament, which a small glass bead also does not resemble. Therefore, my reason for suspecting that it is not legal is based on the very definition of a fiber that you provided.

Lastly, at no point did I say definitively that it is illegal, only that I would question it as an inspector and get a second opinion from my boss at the event, who is the LRI. If the event LRI is unsure, he or she can take it up to the CRI, who is on call to all LRIs during an event, or to FRC HQ. that is the process.

[Fusion_Clint]

I reckon we will have to agree to disagree.

The rule clearly intends the rope be flexible to less than 12 inches vertical from the point it is held.

They will have to give exact tolerances for a fiber and it be measured with an optical/laser comparator to fit your definition. BTW where does it say the bead is round?

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

The rule clearly intends the rope be flexible to less than 12 inches vertical from the point it is held.

I don't dispute that, however my issue is not with the rope itself being flexible. I'm sure this one is. My issue is that it must also be composed entirely of flexible fibers.

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

They will have to give exact tolerances for a fiber and it be measured with an optical/laser comparator to fit your definition. BTW where does it say the bead is round?

I don't believe they will need a laser or even a specification to determine that a small glass bead is not a "slender and greatly elongated natural or synthetic filament" based on the definition that you provided. The linked rope states "50,000 minute glass beads to the square inch". I am indeed assuming that means a sphere, but even if they are a diamond or a heart or a cylinder, they are not going to be "slender and greatly elongated", nor "filaments".

I don't want to have a team go buy this rope (since talking about it, they have gone from 201 to 171 feet in stock, so i suspect three teams bought 10 feet each!), develop a system that relies on it, and then have it non-functional because of an inspection issue. All inspectors have the goal of making sure everyone gets on the field and is playing by the rules.

Please let us know when Q&A answers your question about this material.

That being said, and after typing up a long reply with my reasoning (small glass beads are not flexible filaments), I went and found the manufacturer's website for this product: http://shop.pmirope.com/12-5mm-retro...s-rr125yg030ev

Reading that, they don't talk about glass beads at all. they talk about "Retro reflective filaments" which are not glass beads. as a result, I think this rope is probably legal now.

Am I willing to admit that my answer changed because of new evidence? yes.
Am I willing to admit I was wrong? Yes and no. Yes, because the final material looks fine, now that there is more information, but No because given the originally linked page as the only documentation of the material, I don't think the material met the letter of the rule.

I suspect we still disagree as to why the material is legal, but i think we both now agree that it probably is.

[saintblaze4639]

how about velcro, as according to the Ri3d 1.0 video?

[Steph342]

Is there anything preventing you from using a nylon strap and a drum with barb wire to suck in the rope and winch yourself up?

[AndyBare]

Amsteel blue is another really good option that I've worked with in the past. Very strong, and super easy to work with, and manipulate.
Check out specs: http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Prod...?ProductID=872
And a tutorial on fixing an eye in your rope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q22wgYZL9f0

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Steph342

Is there anything preventing you from using a nylon strap and a drum with barb wire to suck in the rope and winch yourself up?

Offhand, I'd say the inspectors that will take one look at your drum of barb wire, facepalm, and start patiently explaining the safety rules.

[cpapplefamily]

There is going to be a long Q and A on this one stand by. So many different ropes and straps. I'm supersized they only gave one example and did not spec minim diameters of weights.

[Chief Hedgehog]

Originally Posted by Steph342

Is there anything preventing you from using a nylon strap and a drum with barb wire to suck in the rope and winch yourself up?

I like out of the box ideas and I am not trying to be mean, but...

The scary thing about Chief Delphi is that some of these ideas become a reality.

If that thing WAS allowed on the field, the other robots would find the nearest corner and attempt to wet themselves.