Moving lift to put gear on peg easier

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by NAP17

When a robot is putting a gear on the spring can the pilot pull the rope to the ship at the same time to help the robot?

This is for strategy

Are you talking about the rope/handle that pulls up the lift? Or the rope that the robot eventually climbs?

PILOTS aren't allowed to release the climbing ROPE until the last 30 seconds, and even after that, can't reach through the PORT to touch the ROPE.

On the other hand, PILOTS are allowed to operate the LIFT with its rope handle. There's some debate over whether they can move a LIFT while a robot is interacting with it. There won't be a definitive answer on that until there's an official Q&A on it.

[Karthik]

I've merged the three threads discussing this same topic.

[niklas674]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I've merged the three threads discussing this same topic.

Thank you.

[rich2202]

I initially thought about needing Pilot interaction to help get the gear from the robot but....

There are 2 pilots, and 3 gear stations. During autonomous, all 3 robots will be dropping off gears. Requiring 2 pilots to manage 3 robots is asking for failure.

Safest option is to be the robot that does not require Pilot interaction.

[RobotsQ]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I've merged the three threads discussing this same topic.

Thank you so much. My first reply seems a bit pretentious now tho, have to edit😊


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MikLast]

With Team update #1 posted, this idea is still legal.

[FalconCHief]

Originally Posted by Aidan H.

I combed the rules, and though it emphasizes safety (and this act seems to not be very safe, strictly speaking) it does not lay out any explicit rules for the robot->lift->pilot exchange of the gear, other than it has to come up through the hole.

But of note, in the field walk-through videos it seems to say that "once the pilot has determined that the robot has safely put the gear on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot" (@0:57 here https://youtu.be/ZeOevMTC_rw?t=57s).

What confuses me is that this seems to be a significant hole in the rules, as it's the difference between a mostly passive system and a significantly more complicated active system. Though I would not be surprised if the GDC simply didn't think about it, and adds a rule prohibiting lift movement while a robot is touching the gear on the peg, there is a chance that they intentionally left the rule out to make the gear movement an easier task.

Does anyone else think it will be corrected? If so, doesn't it seems like quite a large rules change? Is there a precedent from previous years for a significant change like this?

The actual quote from the video is: "Once the pilot determines the gear is safely on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot." It is a suttle difference but it is there. This quote would indicate to me that the pilot may NOT lift the peg UNTIL the gear safely on it. I don't think anyone can say the gear is safely ON THE PEG if the robot is still trying to manuvre the gear to the peg. AKA: The pilot may NOT lift the peg until the robot has placed the gear on the peg. This does not however clarify if the robot must MOVE from the peg once the gear is 'on' it. It does say "up and way from the ROBOT." This leads me to believe the robot COULD still be in contact with the gear but not moving, while it is on the peg and still be lifted by the pilot.

[FalconCHief]

Also in the airship video the qote is: "Once a gear is on a peg, a pilot operates the lift". Again this would tell me the pilot may NOT operate the lift BEFORE the gear is on it (to assist the robot to place the gear).
@ 2:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1mM_amcQZk


I would NOT design a robot that requires piolt assistance to place the gear.

[GeeTwo]

Reminder to all that video commentary is not rules, and is not even blue boxes. Trying to read additional details into them is pointless.

What's the big deal anyway? The target area is over 6 inches in diameter. Note that it is impossible to get the peg into the hole in the gear designed for the axle; it is too big. You have to use one of the five sector holes. The peg is a spring; minor deflection of the peg can be achieved by pushing it one way or the other.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by rich2202

I initially thought about needing Pilot interaction to help get the gear from the robot but....

There are 2 pilots, and 3 gear stations. During autonomous, all 3 robots will be dropping off gears. Requiring 2 pilots to manage 3 robots is asking for failure.

Safest option is to be the robot that does not require Pilot interaction.

This applies mostly if you plan to move again after your autonomous drop off. You can't actually score the auton points without the pilots getting all three gears, so unless all 3 robots are doing something afterward (which is unlikely for a number of reasons including the benefit of staggered shooting), no one is taking a loss. This is even less likely in teleop, both because the robots will get and will likely want to be staggered and because the last thing you want to do is leave an unattended gear for a defender to hit (if I were a good defender in teleop, I might make a habit of driving in there when a gear robot leaves just for good measure if this became a common practice).

Also consider for your own team's design that a pilot looking down at the peg and gear could well know with more certainty and speed that it's ready to lift before the robot/driver does. Because the other last thing you want to do is accidentally drop the gear either because you can't tell from that distance or because the pilot--trying to go as fast as possible and who may not be on your team--thinks they should raise the peg on you. In overall terms of safety against dropping the gear, it is by far safer to have the guy lifting it up take it rather than the guy dropping it. Make it easy for them.

There are ways to mitigate all of these of course, and it depends on what level you're playing at. But for most teams, think I like my general philosophy in this situation: minimize moving parts and their movers, and the one who does move should be the one advancing the situation (taking possession of the gear, so the pilot). It's like 2012 bridge balancing: one guy gets it in place, the other one finishes, so both are in agreement. Don't create a situation in which you want both moving during the same "step"--something will fall.

And now we wait for the Q&A.

[FalconCHief]

According to one of our coaches this was in the first update:

The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD.

[FrankJ]

A couple of observations:

Presumably you will try for one of the pie sections on the gear. The actual pie holes on the gear you are aiming for is a lot smaller than 6 inches.

The lift is constrained to vertical movements. The pilots are constraint to staying in the airship & only handling the lift rope when the lift is down. Very little danger with both the pilot and the robot interacting with the lift at the same time. Any rule effecting this will be difficult for the referees to judge. Rules are already there to prevent you from pulling the robot into the airship.

Hopefully the GDC will clarify this. Otherwise the head rererree can at the pre-match driver's meeting.

[iyportne]

When challenging what was in the mind of the game designers one can look at the "teamversion" of the game elements that they offer to practice on. In this case they are depicting peg assembly as a stationary target, not a movable slide, hinting that is the indented transaction. Perhaps this is insight to what FIRST will rule. Just sayin'

see page 6 https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amVersions.pdf

[VIKotic Dave]

See Q1 in the FIRST Q&A.

[Bkeeneykid]

Q&A Question #1 answers this: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/1

Yes. There are no restrictions on a PILOT operating the LIFT while a ROBOT is placing a GEAR.