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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-01-2017, 19:24
EricH's Avatar
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Before sewing Velcro onto your ropes, double-check Q6's answer. Emphasis mine:
Quote:
Non-adhesive-backed hook and loop fastener may be part of, or the entirety of, a legal ROPE, provided that the ROPE is entirely made of "flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" per I04 (e.g. something stuck to or wrapped around the outside of the ROPE does not satisfy this requirement unless it's whipping as permitted per I04 part D).
Cue debate on whether sewing Velcro onto the rope counts as sticking it on or weaving it in.
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Unread 15-01-2017, 02:48
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Before sewing Velcro onto your ropes, double-check Q6's answer. Emphasis mine:


Cue debate on whether sewing Velcro onto the rope counts as sticking it on or weaving it in.
Drat. If you can't wrap velcro around a rope, why would sewing it be any more legal?
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Unread 15-01-2017, 06:56
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

The question is, are sewing and weaving the same thing?

Ask any craftsperson, and likely the answer will be No. You sew woven things together.

From Dictionary.com

Sew:
Quote:
1.
to join or attach by stitches.
2.
to make, repair, etc., (a garment) by such means.
3.
to enclose or secure with stitches:
to sew flour in a bag.
4.
to close (a hole, wound, etc.) by means of stitches (usually followed by up).
5.
to work with a needle and thread or with a sewing machine.
Weave:
Quote:
1.
to interlace (threads, yarns, strips, fibrous material, etc.) so as to form a fabric or material.
2.
to form by interlacing threads, yarns, strands, or strips of some material:
to weave a basket; to weave cloth.
3.
to form by combining various elements or details into a connected whole:
to weave a tale; to weave a plan.
4.
to introduce as an element or detail into a connected whole (usually followed by in or into):
She wove an old folk melody into her latest musical composition.
5.
to direct or move along in a winding or zigzag course; move from side to side, especially to avoid obstructions:
to weave one's way through traffic.
6.
to form or construct something, as fabric, by interlacing threads, yarns, strips, etc.
7.
to compose a connected whole by combining various elements or details.
8.
to be or become formed or composed from the interlacing of materials or the combining of various elements:
The yarn wove into a beautiful fabric.
9.
to move or proceed in a winding course or from side to side:
dancers weaving in time to the music.
(several of those definitions are abstractions of the original meaning of making fabric)
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  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-01-2017, 09:40
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

The OP stated this

Answer: Please see Team Update 02. Non-adhesive-backed hook and loop fastener may be part of, or the entirety of, a legal ROPE, provided that the ROPE is entirely made of "flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" per I04 (e.g. something stuck to or wrapped around the outside of the ROPE does not satisfy this requirement unless it's whipping as permitted per I04 part

I would argue that sewing is just a former of tieing
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  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-01-2017, 09:52
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

People. Do we really want to put together a plan in which one of the major objectives of the game will rely on our ability to debate the meaning of words with an inspector? When we still have five weeks to design, prototype, and test? When there are dozens of viable alternatives? For instance, have we tried combing fibers out of something else that is, inarguably, rope, and tested them against the hook side of Velcro for adhesion? Just one of many options.

I implore you to not spend your mental energy on preparing your argument for the inspectors. We all have better things to be thinking about and working on.
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Unread 15-01-2017, 12:47
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
People. Do we really want to put together a plan in which one of the major objectives of the game will rely on our ability to debate the meaning of words with an inspector? When we still have five weeks to design, prototype, and test? When there are dozens of viable alternatives? For instance, have we tried combing fibers out of something else that is, inarguably, rope, and tested them against the hook side of Velcro for adhesion? Just one of many options.

I implore you to not spend your mental energy on preparing your argument for the inspectors. We all have better things to be thinking about and working on.
I'll second this. There are plenty of excellent ropes and excellent climber ideas that don't need to involve velcro in any way. I think that if you're using semantics to pass inspection you're trying hard to be lazy (Trust me I'm really good at doing it). I personally think it will be more interesting if everyone's robot isn't the same. (Cue joke about 2015 robot design here.)
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Unread 15-01-2017, 12:53
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thayer McCollum View Post
I'll second this. There are plenty of excellent ropes and excellent climber ideas that don't need to involve velcro in any way. I think that if you're using semantics to pass inspection you're trying hard to be lazy (Trust me I'm really good at doing it). I personally think it will be more interesting if everyone's robot isn't the same. (Cue joke about 2015 robot design here.)
Arguably that's half my job as an engineer.
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  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-01-2017, 17:57
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollien View Post
Drat. If you can't wrap velcro around a rope, why would sewing it be any more legal?
Good question. But, team 4466 asked about sewing directly, https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/156. We'll see how that turns out.
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Unread 15-01-2017, 18:22
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Oh god. This is a tricky one.

Non-metallic is easy.

The loop side has fibers twisted an/or woven in, just loosely. So I guess that counts.

The hook side, well, if the hooks are made of heavy fibers, it depends all on how they are attached to the backing. If they are woven in, then it's all good.

Either, way, you'll need to find double-sided Velcro or sew two strips back-to-back.
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Unread 15-01-2017, 21:03
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

I bought 10 meters of loop velcro this morning (the cashier didn't understand why I only wanted both hook AND loop) and, this afternoon, I managed to make a robot climb 6' high on that strip and to add about 150 pounds on it without ripping it.

I highly recommend simply buying 1" velcro... It's cheap and you don't risk anything...
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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:18
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve View Post
Time to apply for the new volunteer role.

Attachment 21531
I wonder if RI's will approve "typical rope", and anything else will be deferred to a "rope" line at the Inspection Station that is staffed by the LRI.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:21
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDesbiens View Post
I bought 10 meters of loop velcro this morning (the cashier didn't understand why I only wanted both hook AND loop) and, this afternoon, I managed to make a robot climb 6' high on that strip and to add about 150 pounds on it without ripping it.

I highly recommend simply buying 1" velcro... It's cheap and you don't risk anything...
How straight does it hang after being wrapped up?
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  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 22:50
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
People. Do we really want to put together a plan in which one of the major objectives of the game will rely on our ability to debate the meaning of words with an inspector? When we still have five weeks to design, prototype, and test? When there are dozens of viable alternatives? For instance, have we tried combing fibers out of something else that is, inarguably, rope, and tested them against the hook side of Velcro for adhesion? Just one of many options.

I implore you to not spend your mental energy on preparing your argument for the inspectors. We all have better things to be thinking about and working on.
^^ This. We used a window motor today to climb a COTS poly 3/8" rope (no mods other than a cut and light fusing with a heat gun), lifting its 14 pound battery and other mechanisms. All the magic was on the winch side. Apart from a lumber frame, everything was standard FRC components built with tools available to nearly all teams. If it weren't that the large diameter of the default rope (6 ton line? really? ) would require gearing farther down and a larger drum, we would consider using it.
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  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 23:16
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Surely if fuzzy polyethylene rope snags on my calluses, Velcro is completely unnecessary.

See GeeTwo's post, and the one he quoted.

Time management is more important than Velcro management.

Whose team's project plan has a box labeled lawyer-the-rules, or one called hope-to-win-a-debate-with-an-inspector?

Know what I mean?
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Unread 17-01-2017, 11:12
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Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblake View Post
Surely if fuzzy polyethylene rope snags on my calluses, Velcro is completely unnecessary.
Absolutely! Solid braid nylon and polyester rope found at Home Depot works extremely well. I would say as good or better than Velcro strap from our testing.
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