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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:06
rich2202 rich2202 is offline
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I wish some questions were never asked

I wish some questions were never asked.

Quote:
Q153 Does propelling FUEL through the air between robot mechanisms count as LAUNCHING?

If FUEL is propelled by one part of the ROBOT through the air to another part of the ROBOT while maintaining control and possession of the FUEL the entire time, does it constitute a violation of G23?


Answer

As long as the FUEL remains within the ROBOT'S volume, it does not violate G23 or G28.
Here is the problem: Team designs a fuel picker that gathers fuel from the floor, coveys them up the robot, and spits them out into a hopper on the robot.

If the hopper is at the max height (24" for the short robot), then the fuel has technically gone outside of the Robot's volume. Also, if fuel misses the hopper and falls outside the Robot, ...

Prior to the question being asked, I am sure the Ref's would have considered well behaved loading/picking mechanisms as not violating the "launching" rule.
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Last edited by rich2202 : 16-01-2017 at 08:09.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:19
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Re: I wish some questions were never asked

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 View Post
I am sure the Ref's would have....
There's your problem

The reason we have rules (and further clarification of said rules) are to make sure that everyone is scored on a level playing field. If there was no clear explanation of this, I could assure you that different refs would have different opinions on whether it is legal or not.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:20
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Re: I wish some questions were never asked

As someone who reffed last year unless told otherwise I wouldn't call a robot violating it's own vertical volume while transferring fuel within it's horizontal volume on this. Perhaps a more in-depth without going into design specific follow up question is in order.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:22
Boltman Boltman is offline
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Re: I wish some questions were never asked

Interesting post good for teams at this point thinking about designs....

I'm sure a ref/inspector reads this day 1 definition in the rules as a starting point , which is clear to me at least:

“For the purposes of FIRSTŪ STEAMWORKS, LAUNCHING is defined
as shooting in the air, kicking or rolling across the floor with an active
mechanism, or throwing in a forceful way.”


G24. Don’t throw GEARS at all. A ROBOT may not LAUNCH a GEAR.
Violation YELLOW CARD

A: As long as the FUEL (or GEAR) remains within the ROBOT'S volume, it does not violate G23 or G28. GAME PIECES are not part of the ROBOT, and thus do not count in regards to measuring the ROBOT Volume.

For FUEL they will stay with the definition and subsequent answer from Q&A which to me means the transfer mechanism better be designed not to allow Fuel outside max volume ever (launch) or risk a foul. OK to shoot in Launchpad with a separate mechanism.

IMO I think MARS James is correct within a vertical volume of your robot frame perimeter GEARS (or max volume with FUEL) is likely ok, any air beyond that at all probably not. This would pretty much eliminate the active floor drop too for both game pieces. At that point might as well push it on LOL and save time designing a launching mechanism for < 11 inches or forceful air outside your max volume that an inspector can sense. A small kicker sure probably ok or internal fuel transfer within the robot is ok...

If they get picky to your excellent point for FUEL it may trigger a foul if they 'see air" launching forcefully like a wood chipper etc. transfer above 24" in your example and/or landing on the floor ...I think inside bot rolling/stacking with no air would be OK inside bot since the definition is talking about the floor. Another point for discussion clarity is game pieces do not count in Robot max volume.

The other aspect to take this way down the rabbit hole.... is any active mechanism they launches fuel inadvertent or not outside your Launchpad would be a likely immediate foul too. You have < 3 50 ball hoppers "in" your launchpad.
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Last edited by Boltman : 16-01-2017 at 09:08.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:25
apm4242 apm4242 is offline
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Re: I wish some questions were never asked

Quote:
G23. Shoot FUEL from your own LAUNCHPAD. A ROBOT may only LAUNCH FUEL while in their LAUNCHPAD (i.e. at least breaking the plane of the line with BUMPERS).

For the purposes of FIRSTŪ STEAMWORKS, LAUNCHING is defined as shooting in the air, kicking or rolling across the floor with an active mechanism, or throwing in a forceful way. A ROBOT that has bumped FUEL has not LAUNCHED it.
Quote:
G28. Don’t use air to direct/redirect FUEL. ROBOTS may not use forced air to affect the movement of FUEL that is outside the volume of the ROBOT.
Violation: RED CARD.
When you reference a rule, remember to copy and paste the rule as a courtesy, folks.

As for responding to the OP- This is an odd answer as it contradicts another answer - Q68.

Quote:
68 can the game pieces (Fuel and Gears) extend outside the robot volume.

Can the pile of Fuel or Gear on top of the robot extend beyond the 24" height for the short robot or 36" for the tall robot as long as there are no robot parts IE. Nets, guides, force fields extending out side the constrained box. If the robot used the entire 36 in. by 40 in. by 24 in. and the gear was set on top would there be a violation?

Answer

GAME PIECES are not part of the ROBOT, and thus do not count in regards to measuring the ROBOT Volume.
Your concerns are valid. I suggest requesting clarification, stating your concerns.

Last edited by apm4242 : 16-01-2017 at 08:29.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 08:34
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Re: I wish some questions were never asked

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 View Post
Prior to the question being asked, I am sure the Ref's would have considered well behaved loading/picking mechanisms as not violating the "launching" rule.
I understand what you are saying, but I think this is the right decision. I don't think we want refs the additional duty of judging if the launched game piece was due to 'loading/pickup' or an in attempt to actually shoot/launch a game piece. Now the rule is easy: if a game piece forcefully excites a robot, it is launching.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 09:13
Boltman Boltman is offline
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Re: I wish some questions were never asked

Quote:
Originally Posted by XaulZan11 View Post
I understand what you are saying, but I think this is the right decision. I don't think we want refs the additional duty of judging if the launched game piece was due to 'loading/pickup' or an in attempt to actually shoot/launch a game piece. Now the rule is easy: if a game piece forcefully excites a robot, it is launching.
Another relevant point to consider this year they are taking the refs out of scoring (Last year in competition had to run over defense more than 2 times several times like 5 or 6 crosses to knock out some lights out in , this affected our RP rank 6 places week 1 ) then they eased the burden retooled burden on refs and it got much better. FRC learned andwent to auto scoring..lots ofcomplaints week 1 last year. So they listened.

This year ...fouls is te exclusive reffing focus in game (no attention to scoring)....so you can bet all refs will eagle eyed/trained exclusively on spotting any fouls. All game pieces/climbs are 100% auto counted for near real time scoring in fact the score at T=0 is almost assuredly the score unless a foul is added.
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Last edited by Boltman : 16-01-2017 at 09:20.
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