Go to Post We could not make weight so we got rid of the cRIO. - Mike Copioli [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 13:03
saintblaze4639's Avatar
saintblaze4639 saintblaze4639 is offline
Registered User
FRC #4639 (The RoboSpartans)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Rookie Year: 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 6
saintblaze4639 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

if you look at hoppers of professional paintball guns that might be a good idea
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 13:09
onenerdyguy onenerdyguy is offline
Registered User
FRC #5929
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lake Park, MN
Posts: 48
onenerdyguy is on a distinguished road
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Take a look at some of the Ri3D teams, specifically the Greenhorns, and how they did it. Many had to solve hte same problem.

I'll be honest, we're in a prototyping stage of 2 shooters, and a hopper that is a pyramid in the center, causing balls to go either right or left, with agitators on both so we don't get a jam. Lowers our capacity a bit, but the speed might make for it.

Prototype! Always prototype, regardless how crazy!
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 13:11
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,768
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

I really think the best way to do this is to not have to sort your hopper into a single feed. In 2009, the last volume scoring game, lots of teams trapped themselves into this paradigm early on and found their scoring potential harshly limited.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 14:22
Jarren Harkema's Avatar
Jarren Harkema Jarren Harkema is offline
Dancing Drive Coach
FRC #4967 (That ONE Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 166
Jarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to allJarren Harkema is a name known to all
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
I really think the best way to do this is to not have to sort your hopper into a single feed. In 2009, the last volume scoring game, lots of teams trapped themselves into this paradigm early on and found their scoring potential harshly limited.
Many of those teams in 2009 did a sort of spray shoot that didn't need to go very high in the air if at all. This is a completely different size and material game piece that needs quite a bit of accuracy to get into the goal. Introducing them in a reliable and consistent manner is going to improve accuracy greatly.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 14:27
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,768
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema View Post
Many of those teams in 2009 did a sort of spray shoot that didn't need to go very high in the air if at all. This is a completely different size and material game piece that needs quite a bit of accuracy to get into the goal. Introducing them in a reliable and consistent manner is going to improve accuracy greatly.
Compare the relative size of the goal and the game pieces in 2009 and 2017. It's much closer than you think!

And, many teams did shoot high in the air, they just converted their shooters to shoot down so that the ball landed in the goal sooner after the shot was taken. Accurate repeatable arc shots with multiple ball wide shooters were clearly demonstrated, just suboptimal for that game.

Don't knock it before you prototype it. If your shooter "wheels" and/or backboard are a uniform thickness / speed / etc, isn't the shot consistent across the shooter width?
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 18:26
waialua359's Avatar
waialua359 waialua359 is offline
Mentor
AKA: Glenn
FRC #0359 (Hawaiian Kids)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Waialua, HI
Posts: 3,315
waialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond reputewaialua359 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Compare the relative size of the goal and the game pieces in 2009 and 2017. It's much closer than you think!
Absolutely this!
__________________

2016 Hawaii Regional #1 seed, IDesign, Safety Award
2016 NY Tech Valley Regional Champions, #1 seed, Innovation in Controls Award
2016 Lake Superior Regional Champions, #1 seed, Quality Award, Dean's List
2015 FRC Worlds-Carver Division Champions
2015 Hawaii Regional Champions, #1 seed.
2015 Australia Regional Champions, #2 seed, Engineering Excellence Award
2015 Inland Empire Regional Champions, #1 seed, Industrial Design Award
2014 OZARK Mountain Brawl Champions, #1 seed.
2014 Hawaii Regional Champions, #1 seed, UL Safety Award
2014 Dallas Regional Champions, #1 seed, Engineering Excellence Award
2014 Northern Lights Regional Champions, #1 seed, Entrepreneurship Award
2013 Championship Dean's List Winner
2013 Utah Regional Champion, #1 seed, KP&B Award, Deans List
2013 Boilermaker Regional Champion, #1 seed, Motorola Quality Award
2012 Lone Star Regional Champion, #1 seed, Motorola Quality Award
2012 Hawaii Regional Champions #1 seed, Motorola Quality Award
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 19:24
Lord Basket's Avatar
Lord Basket Lord Basket is offline
President & Drive team coach
AKA: Parker
FRC #1719 (The Umbrella Corporation)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 21
Lord Basket has a spectacular aura aboutLord Basket has a spectacular aura aboutLord Basket has a spectacular aura about
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Impellers like those used in paintball guns are absolutely a good idea to prototype, but don't come in with the assumption that because it's the most effective loader for paintball, it must also be the most effective loader for robots this year. A big difference between paintball hoppers and robots this year is the size of the balls relative to the container.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 15:50
Cothron Theiss's Avatar
Cothron Theiss Cothron Theiss is offline
Registered Muser
FRC #4462 (Full Metal Jackets)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Kingston, Tennessee
Posts: 571
Cothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond reputeCothron Theiss has a reputation beyond repute
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
I really think the best way to do this is to not have to sort your hopper into a single feed. In 2009, the last volume scoring game, lots of teams trapped themselves into this paradigm early on and found their scoring potential harshly limited.
Do you mind providing an example or two of teams that did NOT have to sort their hopper into a single feed and were successful? I'm just not quite sure if I understand your point entirely.
__________________
"It's taking longer than expected, which was to be expected."
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 16:06
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,074
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss View Post
Do you mind providing an example or two of teams that did NOT have to sort their hopper into a single feed and were successful? I'm just not quite sure if I understand your point entirely.
67, 971, and 111 are solid examples to start with.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 16:11
engunneer's Avatar
engunneer engunneer is offline
Alumni turned Mentor
AKA: Branden Gunn
FRC #4761
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Reading, MA
Posts: 873
engunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss View Post
Do you mind providing an example or two of teams that did NOT have to sort their hopper into a single feed and were successful? I'm just not quite sure if I understand your point entirely.
unfortunately there is little match video, but our (1318) design in 2009 was 2.5 (ish) balls wide from intake to outflow. We won a regional and seeded #2 on Galileo.

I think his point was that once you commit to a singe stream shooter, you commit to a bottleneck mechanism, and if you skip the single width shooter, you may never need a bottleneck.
__________________
Student FRC23 (1996-1999), Mentor FRC246 (2000), Mentor FRC1318 (2007-2009), Mentor FRC93 (2011), Mentor FRC2151 (2012), Mentor FRC23 (2013), Mentor FRC4761 (2014-2017)
1998 - National Chairman's Award and Woodie Flowers Award (FRC23, Mike Bastoni ) | 2007 - PNW SF (488, 1595) | 2008 - Oregon RCA - Seattle #2 Seed, SF (488, 1696) | 2009 - Oregon #1 Seed, Winners (1983, 2635) - Seattle SF (945, 2865) - Galileo #2 Seed, SF (973, 25) | 2012 Midwest F (111, 71) | 2014 RIDE Winners (78, 125), Inspector - NEU #24, QF (3479, 3958) - NECMP #35 | 2015 Reading #11, SF (1058, 190), Inspector - RIDE #17, QF(4055, 5494), Inspector - NECMP #57 | 2016 Reading #4, SF (133, 4474), DCA, Inspector - Ride #22, SF (1735, 2067), Creativity, Inspector - NECMP #48, RCA - Archimedes
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 16:12
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,768
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss View Post
Do you mind providing an example or two of teams that did NOT have to sort their hopper into a single feed and were successful? I'm just not quite sure if I understand your point entirely.
Part of the challenge is that most of these robots converted themselves into short-range dumpers before too long, since it was very easy for this style of robot to do that.

67 was a two ball wide shooter, but balls that came up in the middle shot just fine.

228 was not the greatest robot, but I'm very familiar with that example - a 3 inch diameter drum across the entire width shooter with a lexan hood allowed for those kind of shots.

Dumpers that had more of an active "shot" out rather than a slower puke could be argued to be this kind of shooter - 47's rebuild, 254 / 968, etc. come to mind.

100's shooter is pretty much perfect for this, but their hopper did divide into two single file channels (I'm not sure that was necessary, but that's how it was).

The key design details tend to be the use of a roller of uniform diameter rather than spaced wheels, and the use of a curved backboard made from a single piece of plastic rather than separate "rails" used on some hooded shooters.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 18:17
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,731
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

I don't have any useful answer or suggestion here, other than I've just decided my personal term for this robot system is now "fuel injector".
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2017, 20:04
PayneTrain's Avatar
PayneTrain PayneTrain is offline
Q&A Dartboard Detractor
AKA: Lizard King
FRC #0422 (The Meme Tech Pneumatic Devices)
Team Role: Mascot
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: RVA
Posts: 2,271
PayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Part of the challenge is that most of these robots converted themselves into short-range dumpers before too long, since it was very easy for this style of robot to do that.

67 was a two ball wide shooter, but balls that came up in the middle shot just fine.

228 was not the greatest robot, but I'm very familiar with that example - a 3 inch diameter drum across the entire width shooter with a lexan hood allowed for those kind of shots.

Dumpers that had more of an active "shot" out rather than a slower puke could be argued to be this kind of shooter - 47's rebuild, 254 / 968, etc. come to mind.

100's shooter is pretty much perfect for this, but their hopper did divide into two single file channels (I'm not sure that was necessary, but that's how it was).

The key design details tend to be the use of a roller of uniform diameter rather than spaced wheels, and the use of a curved backboard made from a single piece of plastic rather than separate "rails" used on some hooded shooters.

If I recall correctly, the shift from shooters to a different archetype was known as vomit mode in some places of the internet. Just wanted to give newer people a different search term.

On second thought, use that term very wisely...
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 13:12
Zack-5421 Zack-5421 is offline
Registered User
FRC #5421 (Birch Bots)
Team Role: Photography
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 22
Zack-5421 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

The hoppers have a blender in them use a mini cim or bag motor to attach a verticle shaft and attach pieces of Lexan or metal and you have yourself a jam free hopper
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2017, 13:23
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,768
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: ball "fuel" hopper sorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack-5421 View Post
The hoppers have a blender in them use a mini cim or bag motor to attach a verticle shaft and attach pieces of Lexan or metal and you have yourself a jam free hopper
This is a good approach to start with, but this is absolutely not the kind of thing you can be assured will be "jam-free" until you've thoroughly prototyped the exact geometry you will use on the competition robot.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:36.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi