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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:32
paul.dornfeld paul.dornfeld is offline
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Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

When placing the gears on the peg, we are wondering what constitutes launching? Any mechanism that extends horizontally directly from inside the bot carrying the gear for placement has the potential for generating gear momentum and if it misses the peg, having the gear continue its path in free fall (aka a trajectory). So, what in your collective experiential wisdom is going to be the difference between ejecting a gear and launching, please? Thank you.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:44
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

This is a great question for the official Q&A; all we can do here is speculate and quote the Manual.

My personal opinion only - don't push your luck on a gear "ejecting" mechanism.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:45
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

The refs will be looking for intentionality on this one.

If you have a fuel caught somewhere on top of your robot and hit the brakes and it falls off, it will not fall straight down. Unintentional.
If you have a spring that pops it up in the air at the same time as part of the design, it would be intentional.

Now for the gear. Gears WILL fall off robots. If you are using it as a design or driving strategy, it will be a foul. If your driving to the lift and the gear falls off a foot back and happens to land on the lift, I would not expect a foul. If you are repeatedly able to do it, expect a foul.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:46
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

In the words of Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it".

There is no way to tell for sure, and it will likely be called differently from competition to competition, and even from referee to referee. It is early in build season, if your design is causing you to question if it could be considered launching then I would recommend reconsidering your design. You never want to leave anything up to a judgment call if it can be avoided.

I would suspect that penalties will not be called unless either the gear is leaving the robot by design prior to contacting the peg, or it is leaving the robot with enough force to propel it significantly. If the distance the gear travels is similar to what would happen if it simply fell out of the robot then I would not expect an issue.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:47
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Originally Posted by Fields View Post
Now for the gear. Gears WILL fall off robots. If you are using it as a design or driving strategy, it will be a foul.
I would definitely not interpret the launching rule to mean that you can't intentionally drop a gear onto the ground? I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. All the more reason to go to the Q&A here.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:51
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

There is another thread about actively placing gears. I found a relevant Q&A answer (Q96) which seems to imply that if your robot doesn't do anything listed in the blue box of [G23], you're fine. LAUNCHING is defined in [G23]. Other than LAUNCHING, put all the enthusiasm you want behind putting that gear onto the peg.

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...37&postcount=7
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Unread 16-01-2017, 11:17
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
I would definitely not interpret the launching rule to mean that you can't intentionally drop a gear onto the ground? I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. All the more reason to go to the Q&A here.
The fall is not what I'm saying will draw the foul. Sorry for wording it poorly.

What I meant was something to the effect of, if you could consistently stop two feet short of the lift and have the gear "fall" and land on the lift, then you are intentionally launching the gear, whether by mechanism or the frame itself.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 12:29
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Originally Posted by Fields View Post
The fall is not what I'm saying will draw the foul. Sorry for wording it poorly.

What I meant was something to the effect of, if you could consistently stop two feet short of the lift and have the gear "fall" and land on the lift, then you are intentionally launching the gear, whether by mechanism or the frame itself.
You'd see a lot of referee discrepancy over calling that as "throwing in a forceful way". It certainly isn't under the rest of the definition of launching since "LAUNCHING is defined as shooting in the air, kicking or rolling across the floor with an active mechanism, or throwing in a forceful way."

I'm trying to think of a follow-up Q&A phrasing for "throwing in a forceful way" that won't return the dreaded Your Higher Beings Will Not Comment on Hypothetical Situations answer. Maybe something about whether "forceful" requires imparting an additional parallel force component rather than failing to impede existent momentum.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 12:38
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Originally Posted by Siri View Post
You'd see a lot of referee discrepancy over calling that as "throwing in a forceful way". It certainly isn't under the rest of the definition of launching since "LAUNCHING is defined as shooting in the air, kicking or rolling across the floor with an active mechanism, or throwing in a forceful way."

I'm trying to think of a follow-up Q&A phrasing for "throwing in a forceful way" that won't return the dreaded Your Higher Beings Will Not Comment on Hypothetical Situations answer. Maybe something about whether "forceful" requires imparting an additional parallel force component rather than failing to impede existent momentum.
There are a few Q&A's where they simply quote the relevant rules, as if that is enough clarification to the question. In cases where it seems like the team asking the question is asking for clarification on wording or terminology in a rule, it's almost as bad as the anti-hypothetical-situation response.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 13:16
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

Its basically don't throw your gear past the robots volume
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Unread 16-01-2017, 15:29
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul.dornfeld View Post
When placing the gears on the peg, we are wondering what constitutes launching? Any mechanism that extends horizontally directly from inside the bot carrying the gear for placement has the potential for generating gear momentum and if it misses the peg, having the gear continue its path in free fall (aka a trajectory). So, what in your collective experiential wisdom is going to be the difference between ejecting a gear and launching, please? Thank you.
Anything above 3 inches, and that's being generous.
If a gear is going further then that with the intent being the gear is placed somewhere I'd call it launching.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 15:47
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird View Post
Anything above 3 inches, and that's being generous.
If a gear is going further then that with the intent being the gear is placed somewhere I'd call it launching.
Is 3" an official specification, or an opinion?
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Unread 16-01-2017, 15:50
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Is 3" an official specification, or an opinion?
How so very dare you don't you know who I think I am?
People can't just make stuff up and post it on the Internet that's ridiculous.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 15:54
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird View Post
How so very dare you don't you know who I think I am?
People can't just make stuff up and post it on the Internet that's ridiculous.
Well, supposing you're not a troll or being sarcastic...

...it was an honest question. If 3" was posted in a Q&A response, we'd all like to know. If 3" is somewhere in the manual, we'd all like to know. What is the 3" based on, frame perimeter, bumpers, etc? That way we can all point it out to a referee.

If 3" is based upon 'thoughts and feelings', then they're your thoughts and feelings, rather than facts. We're allowed to disagree on opinions, but facts are pretty set in stone.
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Last edited by JesseK : 16-01-2017 at 15:57.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 16:04
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Re: Gears: vigorously placing vs. launching

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Well, supposing you're not a troll or being sarcastic.

It was an honest question. If 3" was posted in a Q&A response, we'd all like to know. If 3" is somewhere in the manual, we'd all like to know. That way we can all point it out to a referee.

If 3" is based upon 'thoughts and feelings', then they're your thoughts and feelings, rather than facts. We're allowed to disagree.
Oh I thougot your original reply was the subtle way of nudging people to the q&a and I was trying to play off that sorry if I sounded rude.

Underlying point this kind of question is specific and relevant enough that it would be beneficial to tack it onto the q&a (provided it hasn't already been answered). Delphi is great for speculation and such but it does not hold up in the court of law that is the competition question box.
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