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Unread 22-01-2017, 20:58
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Re: Picking up fuel from the ground vs. using hoppers/retrieval zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by g_sawchuk View Post
I openly welcome you to risk 140 points during eliminations for the single gear that you don't complete because you wanted to dump the hoppers (or 50 for a hang that you might have not had time for as you raced to complete your 4th rotor).
I'm not quite sure as to why you think getting this one gear lead hurts you - you're working towards scoring while they're trying to counter you on a task you aren't targeting that match.
Please note that I never said if a floor intake or hopper intake was better - I think the others on this thread made that abundantly clear. Just providing insight with regard to countering hopper intakes.

We can apply plenty of levels of play to my suggestion - my thoughts are targeted towards a near-average level match up (perhaps slightly above).
I expect that we mostly* agree with each other. My point was simply that people seem to be picturing one robot zooming around the edge of the field and hitting all the hoppers. A real race can't take nearly that long in reality, regardless of competition level. One robot getting to several dispersed hoppers in series at the start of teleop means by definition that either the other teams don't care enough to reach their nearby hoppers or they're broken/impaired robotically. Either way, even a defender that makes a habit of hitting every hopper they pass will reassess what they can do with their time. The point being that in matches where hopper dumping matters, the time trade-off will look much less like someone going far out of their way and more like situational defense in which someone hits me (or a hopper) while we're both working. Whether or not I choose to make that hit has a lot more to do with the specific field traffic at the time than any grand defensive or offensive philosophy.

The value of getting ahead of the opposition in gear cycling is a lot like other years, being chiefly determined by (A) your rotor predictions and (B) your time opportunity cost. Take a common competitive match situation in which we expect to be evenly matched with the opposition on rotors and climbing but may lag on shooting--it doesn't matter if it's Einstein or a regional qual. We can weigh this likelihood pre-match (with the final decision often based on autonomous scores); it's even arguably easier than in previous years given the massive time difference between finished rotors. So going a few seconds out of my way at the start of teleop in order to rapidly fill my hopper or prevent someone else from doing so may be a risk I decide is worth it. Perhaps I'll be wrong and have needed that time for a final gear that finishes a rotor. (This is why I said if you're close to your time cushion on finishing a rotor, the decision to gear is much clearer.) On the other hand, perhaps I decide not to hit the hopper, I still finish my last gear as expected, but then I can't get the last X balls that I need to beat their fuel score before the climbs. Or maybe I do win--or lose--comfortably, but I come up just a little under a 40kPa RP I really needed. In either latter case, hitting the hopper is a risk I should've taken and could've foreseen two minutes ago.

This is essentially like situational defense every year: sticking purely to offensive scoring at first--not detouring to hit a robot or a hopper--can feel like the conservative strategy, until it's late in the match and you realize you really needed to have made hit X while you were scoring in location Y thirty seconds ago in order to get/keep your winning margin. These situations go on and on every year, and they're among the most difficult jobs coaches have. The crux is that 2 seconds at time/location N do not have the same value as 2 seconds at time/location M.


*I will disagree on one point that, if one robot is in a position to want to go anywhere and dump (plural) hoppers in teleop of a what would be a competitive 4-rotor elim match, numerous people have already done something spectacularly wrong. A match like that (top-tier competitive and caring about hoppers) should have at maximum of one hopper any real distance away by the start of teleop, and that distance should be at maximum a few robot lengths off-course from someone who wants it. I may well decide to hit it if, as above, I expect to both need the 140 points and need that kind of fuel score. At an Einstein level nail-biter like that, trust me, you're not aiming for second place. It's very much go big or go home.
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