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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:26
paul.dornfeld paul.dornfeld is offline
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Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Is there any rule prohibiting a door-like mechanism (completely contained within the frame perimeter) from being in non-marring contact with the floor during any part of the competition? Our concern is that there might be some rule we overlooked and, like any part exceeding the bumper perimeter, must start the match not touching until auto begins. Thank you.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:46
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

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Originally Posted by paul.dornfeld View Post
Is there any rule prohibiting a door-like mechanism (completely contained within the frame perimeter) from being in non-marring contact with the floor during any part of the competition? Our concern is that there might be some rule we overlooked and, like any part exceeding the bumper perimeter, must start the match not touching until auto begins. Thank you.
As long as your mechanism is always inside the volume, starts inside the frame perimeter, does not damage the carpet, and is not made of metal, sand paper, Velcro, or something similar, you should be fine.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:46
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

No rule about parts other than wheels touching the floor. Other robot rules have to be followed. IE bumpers stay in the bumper zone. No field damage. No grasping. So in general YES, but you can't Velcro you robot to the ground,
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Unread 16-01-2017, 10:46
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Assuming you don't damage or attach to the carpet (G15 C,H), I think you should be fine with other parts of your robot contacting the floor.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 11:07
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Paul,
Your mechanism will be evaluated as to it's effect on the bumper zone and the max volume. If it exerts enough force with the floor it is likely going to modify at least those two areas of the rules.
Specifically if your mechanism is meant to raise the robot to facilitate climbing, it may be a violation of those rule areas above. Bumper zone is evaluated as if the robot was sitting on a flat floor with the mechanism in use.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 13:33
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Al, Good points. I was thinking of a dustpan passively resting on the floor with only light pressure (not enough to raise the frame). Hadn't even considered some sort of base or foot to stick out the bottom of the bot for the lifting... Interesting... Thank you for the food for thought.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 13:41
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

If it peels the gaffers tape off the playing field carpet you might be asked to modify it to stop doing that...
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Unread 16-01-2017, 14:19
paul.dornfeld paul.dornfeld is offline
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Thanks. Hadn't thought of that. Was mostly concerned with not snagging the carpet.
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Unread 22-01-2017, 18:20
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Paul,
What I meant is this...
If your dustpan hangs two inches below the robot frame when you lift the robot, then that sets your bumper zone and max volume.

If your dustpan does not move when you lift the robot, then it likely will not affect those rules.
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Unread 23-01-2017, 08:14
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Wow! We hadn't thought of that!
Thank you so much for your experience and insight.
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Unread 23-01-2017, 12:47
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
If it peels the gaffers tape off the playing field carpet you might be asked to modify it to stop doing that...
I'm imagining you having this conversation:

"Um, this is just a little suggestion, but could you PLEASE leave my field in the condition you found it? Savvy?"
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Unread 23-01-2017, 17:03
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

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Originally Posted by scca229 View Post
Savvy?
Did you mean "Capisce"? Oh, you're not from New York...
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Unread 23-01-2017, 17:16
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Paul,
Your mechanism will be evaluated as to it's effect on the bumper zone and the max volume. If it exerts enough force with the floor it is likely going to modify at least those two areas of the rules.
Specifically if your mechanism is meant to raise the robot to facilitate climbing, it may be a violation of those rule areas above. Bumper zone is evaluated as if the robot was sitting on a flat floor with the mechanism in use.
Al, no issues with this so far - if a part pushes down hard enough to have lifted the robot, the bumper zone is measured from that part, as is the allowable volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Paul,
What I meant is this...
If your dustpan hangs two inches below the robot frame when you lift the robot, then that sets your bumper zone and max volume.

If your dustpan does not move when you lift the robot, then it likely will not affect those rules.
In this case, again, no issue that the dustpan must fit within the max volume. Why would this move the bumper zone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R23
BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is the volume contained between the floor and a virtual horizontal plane 7 in. (~17 cm) above the floor in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor....
The BUMPER ZONE definition in the glossary is a subset of this. If the dustpan does not push down hard enough to lift the robot (already established), if it were "standing normally on a flat floor", the virtual floor would still be at the wheels (or other stands which exert enough force to support the robot weight).

I'm not so much trying to get you to change this, as much as to understand how you're interpreting this. We are planning mechanisms below the frame this year, and need to know what to expect.
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Unread 23-01-2017, 22:58
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari423 View Post
As long as your mechanism is always inside the volume, starts inside the frame perimeter, does not damage the carpet, and is not made of metal, sand paper, Velcro, or something similar, you should be fine.
I cannot stress the bolded part enough... We ran into some trouble with ripping the carpet in Indiana last year (with a screw that was uncovered... we would've covered it but it took us like 4 matches to figure out what was ripping the carpet). Anyway, at least in IN and like it said in the rules, if you rip the carpet (even after you free yourself from it, you will get disabled for the remainder of the match. It isn't fun. I'd recommend having some clearance just in case and having something like a pool noodle or cloth in contact with the carpet if you are moving with this mechanism on the ground.
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Unread 23-01-2017, 23:12
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Re: Internal robot parts contacting floor (non-wheel)

Reminds me of a team in 2014. They had no ground clearance to speak of, and field staff knew every time they went across the tape lines. (There's a reason that the FTAs started cutting the tape into sections...) Took them most of practice day to find and solve the problem for good. I want to say it was a screw or something on the robots' belly.



GeeTwo, I can't speak for Al, but what I think he's saying is that if the dustpan (or other device) moves out too far freely, there's a non-zero risk of being called for a bumper zone violation. And the reason is because it has the potential to end up lifting the bumpers out of the zone, should the robot be suddenly transposed to a flat floor. Bumper zone is 0-7" from the floor, measured with the robot sitting on a flat floor. If something is dropping in such a way that the bumpers could be seen to be at 9" from the floor in that position, then it's going to be an interesting discussion with the LRI and quite possibly the Head Ref. Best to make sure that such devices can't go "too far", whatever that is for your robot, in order to prevent that.
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