Is the Boiler worth it?

[Siri]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Actually, I read this the other way. Assuming that the indexer for this counter is of the "gumball machine" style (as seen in some of the kickoff home videos), it will run more slowly with only a few fuel, because some of the holes will be empty as they feed to the counter.

This. If we understand the mechanics correctly, getting less than 5 fuel/second is straightforward (put less fuel in). Getting more depends entirely on how they came up with the "average". Is 5/sec the average processing rate you measure after 20 trials of dumping 150 balls into the high goal from a trash can all at once? Did they estimate the range of what they thought teams' actual rates of putting fuel into the goals would be? How? Did they weight this range? Did they just take the minimum rate (in which the boiler is still the bottleneck), add it to the maximum rate, and divide by two? Did they only use one exact or approximate input rate (that isn't 150 via someone on a ladder) but understand it can be somewhat faster? Did they just put the word average in so no one sat there with a stopwatch? What's your experimental methodology here, folks? It's going to directly inform how much effort some teams put into optimizing their shooters and aspects of their autonomous routines, and even in confusion it's probably already informed higher-level design decisions.

2017 Manual 3.11.4: "A BOILER processes FUEL in to [sic] steam at an average rate of five (5) FUEL per second per GOAL, but actual rate is dependent on the amount and packing of FUEL in the GOALS (i.e. the tighter the packing in a GOAL, the faster the FUEL processing rate)."

Jasmine Florentine, Boiler Field Tour Video: "Our testing has shown a range of a 4-5 fuel per second for each of the goals in the boiler, so 8-10 total fuel per second."

I too cannot reconcile these two statements. How can the range be 4 to 5 and the average be 5? (Do note that there was one mistake in this video that's already been corrected in the description: the dimensions of the high goal opening. But this issue is not mentioned.)

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

The fastest way to get the boiler up will be to dump 50 balls into your robot from a hopper and stream them into the high efficiency goal during auto. Not easy, but fast. I think some teams will do this; i.e., the teams that go to Einstein.

I think that far more teams will be able to do this than the Einstein teams. I truly believe that 3-10 teams per regional will be able to do this. Maybe not in week 1 or 2, but by champs, I believe it will be common.

In regards to whether or not the boiler is worth it: Yes, in the right situation. Say your alliance has time to score 10 gears. So you score 10 gears, then climb. You've gotten 3 rotors spinning with 0 fuel. But you had 3 rotors spinning at 7 gears - you've completely wasted time scoring 3 gears because those 3 give you a grand total of zero points. Whereas if the opponent alliance had the same gear scoring speed, but stopped at 7 and scored fuel for the remainder of the match, then climbed, that alliance is victorious. And also maybe got an extra RP.

I can't speak for whether or not the boiler is "worth it" in eliminations. But the boiler is an incredibly easy way to get a RP during quals, especially with a strong autonomous.

[NShep98]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Actually, I read this the other way. Assuming that the indexer for this counter is of the "gumball machine" style (as seen in some of the kickoff home videos), it will run more slowly with only a few fuel, because some of the holes will be empty as they feed to the counter.

I'm not sure what it sounded like I said, but I think we are both saying the same thing. Theoretically a rate of >5 balls/second can be achieved, but whether or not this is truly possible, and by what margin, is pretty ambiguous at this point.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by NShep98

I'm not sure what it sounded like I said, but I think we are both saying the same thing. Theoretically a rate of >5 balls/second can be achieved, but whether or not this is truly possible, and by what margin, is pretty ambiguous at this point.

No. To clarify, my understanding is that the indexer is designed to pass 5 fuel per second (on average) from a full boiler, and will pass less as the boiler empties. I have read these things incorrectly from time to time.

[PowerfulKitty]

A lot of this has probably already been said, but:

I see a lot of parallels in the scoring setup between Steamworks and Stronghold. I think we will see alliance setups work very similarly. In stronghold, defenses were the 'easier' scoring method, and they initially returned much more points. The problem is there were only so many defenses, and once they were all broken there was nothing left to do. This is the same as gears. Really good shooters struggled in quals last year because they struggled to put up a lot of points. In elims however the match usually hinged on the performance of the alliance's shooter(s) because all defenses on both sides just got broken every match.

Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel. I expect both sides in elims will get all or all but one rotor, and the differentiating factor will be which team can shoot more balls.

[Skyehawk]

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty

A lot of this has probably already been said, but:

I see a lot of parallels in the scoring setup between Steamworks and Stronghold. I think we will see alliance setups work very similarly. In stronghold, defenses were the 'easier' scoring method, and they initially returned much more points. The problem is there were only so many defenses, and once they were all broken there was nothing left to do. This is the same as gears. Really good shooters struggled in quals last year because they struggled to put up a lot of points. In elims however the match usually hinged on the performance of the alliance's shooter(s) because all defenses on both sides just got broken every match.

Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel. I expect both sides in elims will get all or all but one rotor, and the differentiating factor will be which team can shoot more balls.

I agree. The extra qualification point that can be secured by good fuel shooter is also a bit of insurance during quals. Match schedules can sometimes be brutal, and sometimes they carry teams. That extra RP a team can 'guarantee' themselves is a point that's going to help in the long run preventing the best fuel shooters falling out of the top 10 or so.

What we are seeing this year is a bit of an inverse of 2016. The 'easy RP' is in the fuel, a task many teams may choose to ignore, in 2016 quite a few teams were selected for defense breaking ability. The 'hard RP' is in the gears, similar to breaking the tower (with high shots). 40kPa seems easier than 13 gears at any rate. I think we will see a lot of bots working towards that magical 7th gear and picking up fuel at minimal time-cost within the gear cycles. When the bots' fuel storage is full they will shoot or dump.

[Skyehawk]

I discovered my Production Possibility Curve did not include the 40 points of steam bonus for elims. Here is the updated figure:

The same assumptions apply, namely 128 max fuel score.

EDIT: check a few posts below for the NOT SCREWED UP (mad at myself) curve.

[Raysaran]

Originally Posted by Skyehawk

I discovered my Production Possibility Curve did not include the 40 points of steam bonus for elims. Here is the updated figure:

The same assumptions apply, namely 108 max fuel score.

Maybe just a typo, but the bonus for steam in elims is actually 20 points!

[Skyehawk]

Dang it!!! UGGH!


fixed.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by jtrv

I think that far more teams will be able to do this than the Einstein teams. I truly believe that 3-10 teams per regional will be able to do this. Maybe not in week 1 or 2, but by champs, I believe it will be common.

There will not be a single regional in which at least 10 teams score at least 50 high goals in auto.

[SMR Vault]

Originally Posted by EricH

Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

Additionally, you have to deliver all but 1 gear, so that's 12 gears to deliver through the match, which may take a little while (average rate is about one every 10 seconds in teleop to get all 4 rotors). Factor in defense of various types, and you'll need to be pretty good at gear transport to get 4 rotors turning.

Oh, and if you deliver 11 gears, you may as well have stopped at 6.

EricH makes a very sound point. If your team plans to go beyond 7 gears, it needs to be absolutely positive that it can score all 13 by the end of the match, otherwise you've wasted incredibly valuable time that you could've used scoring fuel or defending from other bots.

We reviewed some of these strategies, including defensive strategies, in our video update of weeks 1 & 2 of this season, so check that out for additional info and to see how some teams are implementing these strategies!

https://youtu.be/PJhMr0CW83s

[tindleroot]

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty

Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel.

A lot of people are saying this. In many cases, it will be true. However, in Steamworks there is a viable strategy for an alliance to win a competition without scoring any fuel. Such a strategy would be extremely difficult to counter if executed properly.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by tindleroot

A lot of people are saying this. In many cases, it will be true. However, in Steamworks there is a viable strategy for an alliance to win a competition without scoring any fuel. Such a strategy would be extremely difficult to counter if executed properly.

A 5 / 4 / 3 gear split with three hangers is definitely plausible at certain events, with certain alliances. But if both sides get 12 gears, or neither side gets 12 gears, the difference maker essentially becomes the high goal.

I think you *must* have some sort of ability to manipulate gears and some sort of hanging mechanism to be in elims, because if you have somebody on your alliance who can't do one or the other, you're at least 50 points down (100 if it's gears they can't do) and you have to score 150-300 high goals just to make up for that!

[Peyton Yeung]

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty

Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel. I expect both sides in elims will get all or all but one rotor, and the differentiating factor will be which team can shoot more balls.

Let us not forget that some alliances in 2012 won regionals by triple balancing vs out shooting. That last rotor in elims is 140 points.

[Skyehawk]

I know I have a bias towards shooting, but at extremely high levels of play there will be alliances that max out the gears (provided FIRST doesn't adjust the number required) after that what's left? Climbing and shooting. If you were going to climb in the last 10 sec that leaves you only with shooting. This year I think we could see scores exceeding 400 in division playoffs. (again assuming no FIRST score adjustment)