How to power Mini-PC on robot?

[team-4480]

Hi,

We have a mini-pc that we would like to use for some advanced image processing that can only be done on a full-fledged mini-pc. We wrote the code and tested it and it works great. Now the problem is powering it on the robot. On the AC-DC converter, it states that it outputs 19.5V @4.62 Amps. We found a 19V 5A adapter, but unfortunately, when we plug it in, the mini-pc beeps and gives a red light indicating that the power supply isn't good enough, likely due to the lower voltage.

Has anyone ever done anything like this, or does anyone have an idea on how to properly feed 19.5V to the mini-PC? Also, what are the rules regarding use a DC-DC converter?

Thanks a bunch in advance!

[GeeTwo]

R07, in the blue box letter I, forbids custom circuits from producing voltages in excess of 24 volts, making 19.5 presumably legal. If you can't find a 12V to 19V converter, I would recommend trying to find a 12V to 24V converter, then regulating it down to 19.5.

[team-4480]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

R07, in the blue box letter I, forbids custom circuits from producing voltages in excess of 24 volts, making 19.5 presumably legal. If you can't find a 12V to 19V converter, I would recommend trying to find a 12V to 24V converter, then regulating it down to 19.5.

So this to this then?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by team-4480

Hi,

We have a mini-pc that we would like to use for some advanced image processing that can only be done on a full-fledged mini-pc. We wrote the code and tested it and it works great. Now the problem is powering it on the robot. On the AC-DC converter, it states that it outputs 19.5V @4.62 Amps. We found a 19V 5A adapter, but unfortunately, when we plug it in, the mini-pc beeps and gives a red light indicating that the power supply isn't good enough, likely due to the lower voltage.

Has anyone ever done anything like this, or does anyone have an idea on how to properly feed 19.5V to the mini-PC? Also, what are the rules regarding use a DC-DC converter?

Thanks a bunch in advance!

The rules that would apply to you are R49, customs circuit may not produce more than 24V, and R10, no individual item may exceed $400 in cost.

I'm told R49 is now in place because someone had a 12V to 120VAC inverter on their robot as their solution to a problem like yours. Kudos to you for not trying to electrocute your inspector!

What brand and model of mini PC are we talking about here? I just googled 19.5V car charger and came up with come likely candidates. I know for a fact that many laptops have an extra pin that transmits data about the charger so the laptop can be certain the charger is "safe"*. This may be a similar issue.

On this I'd be concerned about is how your mini PC is going to deal with riding on a robot. The advantage of raspberry pis, kangaroo pcs, etc. is that they're solid state and generally very compact. There's not much inside to get jarred loose and bounce around. Are you sure your miniPC is going to put up with a headon collision with a defender?

EDIT: Here's an adjustable DC boost converter that should work. Though it suggests you'll need a fan on it to pull 5A. While you're at it, have someone print you a case for it, or it's unlikely to pass inspection.

[team-4480]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

The rules that would apply to you are R49, customs circuit may not produce more than 24V, and R10, no individual item may exceed $400 in cost.

I'm told R49 is now in place because someone had a 12V to 120VAC inverter on their robot as their solution to a problem like yours. Kudos to you for not trying to electrocute your inspector!

What brand and model of mini PC are we talking about here? I just googled 19.5V car charger and came up with come likely candidates. I know for a fact that many laptops have an extra pin that transmits data about the charger so the laptop can be certain the charger is "safe"*. This may be a similar issue.

On this I'd be concerned about is how your mini PC is going to deal with riding on a robot. The advantage of raspberry pis, kangaroo pcs, etc. is that they're solid state and generally very compact. There's not much inside to get jarred loose and bounce around. Are you sure your miniPC is going to put up with a headon collision with a defender?

Our HP EliteDesk Mini 705 G1 (The first computer on the page) ran 250 dollars. So I would have to find a charger that transmit a signal saying that our charger is safe?

We are really conveniently in the durability of our mini-PC. It will be mounted using the VESA mount on the back and maybe a couple of zip-ties just to be sure. It has an SSD so there are no moving parts inside the computer.

[Adnewhouse]

Something like this should work nicely and is perfectly legal on the robot: http://a.co/7VNpilJ

[Kevin Sevcik]

Meant to put an asterisk on that "safe". "Safe" in this case means both that it puts out enough amps, and that it's the correct brand, etc. Third party chargers don't work on Lenovos, for instance.

But I digress. What does the plug on the end of your AC adapter look like? Is it just the sleeve and barrel, or is there a pin in the center of it as well? Post a picture of it, if that didn't make sense.

EDIT: The rear view image of that PC on the web doesn't bode well. It looks like the power port wants a center pin, which carries that ID information, which, while spoofable, is pretty difficult to spoof.

EDITx2: Since it looks like you need that ID pin, you're back to first or third party laptop chargers. this might work if the OD of that connector is right. I'm afraid this is going to be a little hit or miss to get this working, though. Can you post the model number of the stock AC-DC adapter? If it can be matched up to a corresponding laptop, then you just have to find a car charger that's compatible with that laptop.

[team-4480]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

EDITx2: Since it looks like you need that ID pin, you're back to first or third party laptop chargers. this might work if the OD of that connector is right. I'm afraid this is going to be a little hit or miss to get this working, though. Can you post the model number of the stock AC-DC adapter? If it can be matched up to a corresponding laptop, then you just have to find a car charger that's compatible with that laptop.

Yes, there is a center pin for the charger.

I will post a picture tomorrow of the official charger brick. Hopefully, we can figure something out. Thanks for the help thus far!

EDIT: Now that I think of it, I believe there was a third white wire when we stripped of the connector to test with our DC-DC adapter. Maybe we just have to apply a certain voltage on that wire and it will work?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by team-4480

Yes, there is a center pin for the charger.

I will post a picture tomorrow of the official charger brick. Hopefully, we can figure something out. Thanks for the help thus far!

Yeah, that's a "smart" charger. Hopefully a pic of the label on the charger will let us cross reference a laptop it works with and then a third part car charger you can power from the PDP.

[rich2202]

IMHO, you should really be thinking laptop with a built in battery.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by rich2202

IMHO, you should really be thinking laptop with a built in battery.

Actually, I'd say this device should be able to run off batteries since most PCs aren't designed to have power yanked from them or drop down randomly so running them from the ROBOT's battery isn't going to work. I'd say that independent battery power is "essential to completeness" to pretty much all COTS computing devices.

However, it is up to all of the LRIs with how they interpret the ambiguously worded rule about COTS device batteries. I know how I'm interpreting it until I'm told otherwise at an event by an LRI.

And based on Al's comments in a prior thread, as long as the COTS computing device's batteries don't interface with the control or drive systems for the robot, you should be following the intent of the rule in his eyes.

EDIT: Or don't test the rules and just use one of these after adjusting the output voltage: http://a.co/gd9yFkM

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by marshall

I'd say that independent battery power is "essential to completeness" to pretty much all COTS computing devices.

"Essential to completeness" is not the standard. Everything on the robot needs something else in order to work.

R37 says: "batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing device". There have been many discussions about batteries and the Raspberry Pi. Until someone sells a Pi COTS with battery, the Pi cannot have its own battery. Team 4480's computer is no different. Hence a laptop (notebook, chromebook, pad, etc.) with a built in battery is the preferred solution.

Just because you have an Operating System on your COTS computing device that does not like a random shutdown is not an excuse. If you had a more fault tolerant OS (and a fast booting one), you would not "need" the second battery.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by rich2202

"Essential to completeness" is not the standard. Everything on the robot needs something else in order to work.

R37 says: "batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing device". There have been many discussions about batteries and the Raspberry Pi. Until someone sells a Pi COTS with battery, the Pi cannot have its own battery. Team 4480's computer is no different. Hence a laptop (notebook, chromebook, pad, etc.) with a built in battery is the preferred solution.

Just because you have an Operating System on your COTS computing device that does not like a random shutdown is not an excuse. If you had a more fault tolerant OS (and a fast booting one), you would not "need" the second battery.

I call shenanigans. Your logic is broken. Laptops do not require a battery to function and can run off of a voltage regulator just like mini PCs and raspberry pis. If we're forced to deal with corrupt operating systems and files then why does a laptop not have to deal with it?

Q&A was asked a direct question about allowing replacement batteries for COTS devices and they chose to answer by explaining that integral means "essential to completeness". You are picking and choosing what that means (Just like I am... see the problem YET?!?!)... and if you're an LRI then you are entitled but no one else is.

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by marshall

I call shenanigans. Your logic is broken. Laptops do not require a battery to function and can run off of a voltage regulator just like mini PCs and raspberry pis. If we're forced to deal with corrupt operating systems and files then why does a laptop not have to deal with it?

Q&A was asked a direct question about allowing replacement batteries for COTS devices and they chose to answer by explaining that integral means "essential to completeness". You are picking and choosing what that means (Just like I am... see the problem YET?!?!)... and if you're an LRI then you are entitled but no one else is.

Well it seems the Q&A explicitly disagrees: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/284

[Jon Stratis]

Marshall, I think you're reading too much into the Q&A ruling. It specifically says that "laptops are designed to have a battery" - even if the battery is swapable, that doesn't mean you're constrained to the one that originally shipped with the laptop, so long as you use a battery intended for use with that laptop by the manufacturer.

But I can't see a way to interpret that ruling to allowing batteries to be added to a computing device that is designed to be run off wall power. Before you try that route, ask a direct question on the Q&A, otherwise you're likely to be disappointed at competition.