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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:12
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Q138 was intentionally worded to be extremely broad, don't deny it. Any attempt to give a detailed response by the GDC would have likely opened up loopholes for teams to exploit. Instead, they gave a simple response that most people can conceptually understand.

Q284, on the other hand, was an extremely straightforward and narrow question, and as such got a straightforward and direct response. Be more like Q284.
Asking them to explain the meaning and intent of a rule is broad? I think not. I wasn't being cute. I was being sincere and trying to get a response.

I'd like to see one of two things:
A) Say that teams can use batteries for computing devices provided it is done safely and doesn't interface with the control or motors for the robot. This can be demonstrated by having the team turn off the robot and see what is still running.

or

B) Make the only legal source of power on the robot to be the ROBOT battery.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:16
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
Asking them to explain the meaning and intent of a rule is broad? I think not. I wasn't being cute. I was being sincere and trying to get a response.

I'd like to see one of two things:
A) Say that teams can use batteries for computing devices provided it is done safely and doesn't interface with the control or motors for the robot. This can be demonstrated by having the team turn off the robot and see what is still running.

or

B) Make the only legal source of power on the robot to be the ROBOT battery.
Both of those options bring up a lot of concerns that I don't think FIRST will agree with. With option A, you have the potential of teams connecting batteries to things that really shouldn't have batteries on them. You'd of course need much more changes in the rules to define what is "safely and doesn't interfere with control or motors for the robot". Option B means a lot of devices are now back out of the reach of teams, which kinda negates the original purpose of R37's lower info box. It's much too late in the season to implement that choice, as many teams are already designing in Phones ala 254 last year, GoPros and other small devices. I'd be ok with that first option, just as long as there's an explicit regulation on what it can and cannot power. Honestly, a single thread on CD and a few Q&A posts are unlikely to change these rules, so I'm not seeing that this could be implemented easily this year.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:28
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid View Post
Both of those options bring up a lot of concerns that I don't think FIRST will agree with. With option A, you have the potential of teams connecting batteries to things that really shouldn't have batteries on them.
You really don't. Limit it to cameras and COTS computing devices and you have what we have now.

Also, S03 already covers unsafe robots.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:40
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Also, S03 already covers unsafe robots.
So you're OK with an LRI arbitrarily looking at a battery powered custom circuit and saying "I deem that to be unsafe"? You don't want rules in place to actually tell you what is considered a safe setup and what isn't?
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:42
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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So you're OK with an LRI arbitrarily looking at a battery powered custom circuit and saying "I deem that to be unsafe"?
It's already a rule and happens all the time to rookie teams.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:51
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
It's already a rule and happens all the time to rookie teams.
Or to any team that doesn't follow whatever inane whims some LRIs seem to have.



Pre-Edit: Don't read any subtext into this. If you think it's an attack on someone, it's not. Seriously, I'm not that subtle.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:56
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

I initially saw the rule (COTS device with Battery) as a power limiting concession, but can also appreciate how it is a safety issue (did the team design the power circuit correctly).

A COTS device that includes a battery is an easy bright line to enforce. If you allow teams to install any battery, then what are the rules on what can get a battery? If a fire starts because a custom battery circuit shorted out, how do you turn it off?

I'm surprised that Samsung 7's weren't banned.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:58
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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I'm surprised that Samsung 7's weren't banned.
Shh! Don't ruin it for us.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 13:03
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by rich2202 View Post
A COTS device that includes a battery is an easy bright line to enforce. If you allow teams to install any battery, then what are the rules on what can get a battery? If a fire starts because a custom battery circuit shorted out, how do you turn it off?
How do you turn off a laptop battery that's shorted out and started a fire? It's certainly happened before.

People aren't asking for "any battery" to be legal, just USB batteries of some shape or form. These are common devices, with a known output plug, voltage, and current. A restriction saying "COTS batteries that output 5V power over USB at 2 amps or less and 10,000mAh or less" for example would be reasonably narrow, wouldn't result in these strange nightmare slippery-slope kids-wired-a-battery-at-home-using-bare-copper scenarios people keep jumping to, and would fix this and many other problems.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 13:13
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
How do you turn off a laptop battery that's shorted out and started a fire? It's certainly happened before.

People aren't asking for "any battery" to be legal, just USB batteries of some shape or form. These are common devices, with a known output plug, voltage, and current. A restriction saying "COTS batteries that output 5V power over USB at 2 amps or less and 10,000mAh or less" for example would be reasonably narrow, wouldn't result in these strange nightmare slippery-slope kids-wired-a-battery-at-home-using-bare-copper scenarios people keep jumping to, and would fix this and many other problems.
Chris, your interpretation of what's been posted here is very different from mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall View Post
I'd like to see one of two things:
A) Say that teams can use batteries for computing devices provided it is done safely and doesn't interface with the control or motors for the robot. This can be demonstrated by having the team turn off the robot and see what is still running.

or

B) Make the only legal source of power on the robot to be the ROBOT battery.
There certainly is room for the rule to be expanded by the GDC without getting too crazy (such as allowing USB battery packs design to work with an arduino), but that's not what people have been pushing for in this thread.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 13:17
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
There certainly is room for the rule to be expanded by the GDC without getting too crazy (such as allowing USB battery packs design to work with an arduino), but that's not what people have been pushing for in this thread.
https://www.cnet.com/how-to/three-th...ut-usb-type-c/

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USB 3.1 Type-C cables offer a transfer rate of 10Gbps, which is double the transfer speed of USB 3.0 (5 Gbps). Additionally, these cables will offer 20 volts and 5 amps of power, compared with the 5 volts and 1.8 amps of its predecessor. This means less waiting around for devices to transfer data or for their batteries to charge.
WOPR wins again... darn it!
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Unread 24-01-2017, 17:35
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

Wow, 3 pages of replies to the poor guy that needed to source a weird power supply for his mini PC. He must be getting lots of help, I probably don't even need to... Oh.

So team-4480, have you gotten any more info on the stock power supply? I'd love to help you figure out an off the shelf solution for powering that.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 19:55
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Wow, 3 pages of replies to the poor guy that needed to source a weird power supply for his mini PC. He must be getting lots of help, I probably don't even need to... Oh.

So team-4480, have you gotten any more info on the stock power supply? I'd love to help you figure out an off the shelf solution for powering that.
So here is the picture of the back of the power brick.

I did some searching on bypassing the "smart power plug" and there are some people suggesting that it has been done just to wire in a 2K resistor to the positive side and a capacitor to the negative and feed that into the white wire. Apparently, that white wire wants something like 12-13V.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 20:17
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

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Originally Posted by team-4480 View Post
So here is the picture of the back of the power brick.

I do some searching on bypassing the "smart power plug" and there are some people suggesting that it has been done just to wire in a 2K resistor to the positive side and a capacitor to the negative and feed that into the white wire. Apparently, that white wire wants something like 12-13V.
This is not always the case. Some of those smart power supplies have a one wire communication chip that sends an actual digital code the laptop/PC is looking for.

At any rate, this car charger will probably work. It's listed as compatible with the same laptops that your stock charger is compatible with.

It has to be a boost charger of some sort, though there isn't a guarantee of how low an input voltage it'll work with. Still $20 for a potential off the shelf solution seems reasonable to me.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 12:45
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Re: How to power Mini-PC on robot?

I think it's vaguely clear that by "integral", they mean, like, the battery isn't an external device that plugs into the power supply port in lieu of a regular power supply. A laptop not only has a cutout for a battery, but a port purpose built for its use, and hardware integral to the laptop to regulate its charge. I think it's not THAT hard to understand the Q&A on this.

All of that being said, I think the rule is stupid and pointless and has no business making this distinction. USB batteries for custom circuits should be allowed. I know they aren't, so I won't use them, but they should be. It's silly that they aren't allowed, and it arbitrarily makes some solutions (more expensive ones!) better than others (more accessible ones!).

Rules for USB batteries don't have to be complicated. Allow a USB powered custom circuit to connect to it using standard ports and cables only. Make it like pneumatics where you can't modify the cables or the battery or use custom wiring or whatever. Maybe even regulate the size of the USB battery if you must. This is not prohibitively difficult.
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