Efficient Points

[WhiteBoySwag]

So after looking into how to score points and where we get our game pieces from, I haven't found a viable use for fuel when relaying gears the whole competition would most likely be a much better use of time. I see the place for a fuel shooting robot in an alliance, however, thinking selfishly I do not really see someone individually gaining more out of shooting over relaying gears and then climbing at the end. I was wondering if anyone could confirm or deny my thoughts on this strategy?

[mrnoble]

Denied. While a dedicated GEAR runner will likely be a very valuable robot, I think you will find that FUEL bots will more than pull their own weight in this game.

[Joseph Smith]

GEAR scoring has a limit. FUEL scoring does not.

[MrForbes]

If your team can make a good fuel handling robot, it's worth it. If not, then it's not worth it.

I see it as a pretty steep curve....if you don't get the whole thing working well, you won't do well.

But the gears have the same problem, you need to be really good with them to do well, and most teams (and alliances) won't ever get really good at it.

So, pick the stuff you want to build, build it, have fun...

[Taylor]

Gears will win matches.
Climbing will win events.
Fuel will win championships.

[Jarren Harkema]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Gears will win matches.
Climbing will win events.
Fuel will win championships.

This was the conclusion we came to after first weekend of build season as well. I'm excited to see how it pans out. My concern is that teams that follow this thought process put gears farther back on the priority list than they should. Matches and events need to be won to earn a spot at championships. A purely fuel scoring robot is going to find it more difficult to make it to Championships on its own. Not impossible, but definitely more of a challenge.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Gears will win matches.
Climbing will win events.
Fuel will win championships.

I think more specifically I would say "Not climbing will lose events". If your alliance has one less climbing robot than the other, where are you getting your points? You need 120 balls in the high goal, or a rotor more than your opponent and then some, in order to make up that deficit.

[Donut]

Fuel scoring will determine events, due to ranking points. The best gear bot in the world won't get 12 gears by itself, while really good ones will have trouble breaking 8 a match and average gear bots will get 2-4 (average FRC team, not necessarily the average Chief Delphi browsing team). Gear bots are heavily reliant on partners to get an extra RP, and if captures last year are an indication it will be rare in quals outside the Championship and District Champ events.

In comparison the fuel RP seems much more achievable by one bot with little to no partner help. That is 40 points, the equivalent of an extra rotor, plus a guaranteed RP. If a fuel bot goes 7-3 but gets the fuel RP in every match it wins, it is tied in ranking points with a gear bot that goes 10-0 and gets one extra RP in the event due to hitting 12 gears or a partner getting the fuel RP.

Gear running will make you a strong first round pick, but gears alone will make it difficult to crack the top 8 unless you are a top 2-3 gear cycler at your event since bots with fuel capability can have a 2-3 win cushion on you if they consistently get the fuel RP.

We prioritized fuel over gears for this reason. We're interested in seeding in the top 10-15 and just making eliminations, since seeding that high will almost guarantee we qualify for the off season State Championship event in Arizona, and we don't think we can pull off a high level gear cycler plus climber.

[New Lightning]

I worry that gears this year will fall into the same trap as low bar robots last year. Being able to fit underneath the low bar was a fundamental design work around last year that teams had to account for. Which in terms so many teams decided to make this part of their strategy that other crucial aspects of the game were ignored. Not saying that some team where not able go under the low bar and effectively accomplish the other task of the game. My team being one of them.

With this year if more teams design around gears being their primary objective, which in my opinion they will, then most alliances will be lacking a refined shooter. Therefore by analyzing the game from this perspective making a fuel robot that is refined and very efficient at fuel scoring will actually contribute much more than an individual gear scoring robot. This adds to your efficiency of your alliance each match and therefore increases your worth when it comes to alliance selections. Where especially in elims where most teams will be able to handle the gear the load the difference will come down to the amount of ball points being scored.

[MrForbes]

Making a refined and very efficient fuel shooter will be a good plan this year. The thing is...how many teams can actually do that, of the number that attempt it? My guess is not very many. It is not a trivial task.

[New Lightning]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

Making a refined and very efficient fuel shooter will be a good plan this year. The thing is...how many teams can actually do that, of the number that attempt it? My guess is not very many. It is not a trivial task.

I not saying that isn't a trivial task, only that it can be extremely valuable if you can. The only reason that I would consider doing this is if I knew my team had the ability to do it to the best possible iteration of it.

With this year's game I think the highest quality shooter that could be produced will be a robot that has an accurate turret with vision tracking that can shoot on the run over a tall robot. Not a easy task, not even a moderately hard task, this is an extremely difficult task. However if you could do that it would be awesome and very valuable to an alliance.

[SBramscher]

The general idea I came to (not necessarily my team) is that gears are going to be similar to defenses from last year. They are going to be simple to score and the amount of effort put into your system is not going to dramatically increase its effectiveness. Last year, most teams who put even slightly below average amount of thought in their drive trains were able to cross most defenses, with the low bar being a strategic exception. I think it is safe to say that since the RI3D can make a decent gear mechanism that we will see it on most bots this year.
What I am getting at is that I do not believe the gears will be the deciding factor in any game where all the robots function normally, obviously in qualification matches where anything can happen alliance wise then gears may be much more important, but during eliminations and final matches the fuel is going to decide it. The number of fuel scored is going to make the difference in those close matches. With this in mind we can expect that fuel scoring capability is likely to be the deciding factor in endgame alliance selection as well.

Just my thoughts.

Also I want to point out, fuel scoring is a finite source of point, because the hoppers process 4-5 fuel per second then that times the number of seconds in a game is the max fuel that can be scored. Unfortunately everything possible falls way under that number.

[Joseph Smith]

Originally Posted by SBramscher

The general idea I came to (not necessarily my team) is that gears are going to be similar to defenses from last year. They are going to be simple to score and the amount of effort put into your system is not going to dramatically increase its effectiveness. Last year, most teams who put even slightly below average amount of thought in their drive trains were able to cross most defenses, with the low bar being a strategic exception. I think it is safe to say that since the RI3D can make a decent gear mechanism that we will see it on most bots this year.
What I am getting at is that I do not believe the gears will be the deciding factor in any game where all the robots function normally, obviously in qualification matches where anything can happen alliance wise then gears may be much more important, but during eliminations and final matches the fuel is going to decide it. The number of fuel scored is going to make the difference in those close matches. With this in mind we can expect that fuel scoring capability is likely to be the deciding factor in endgame alliance selection as well.

Just my thoughts.

Also I want to point out, fuel scoring is a finite source of point, because the hoppers process 4-5 fuel per second then that times the number of seconds in a game is the max fuel that can be scored. Unfortunately everything possible falls way under that number.

While the mechanism to handle a gear can be quite simple, they will absolutely be a deciding factor in a lot of matches. Just because you have three robots on each alliance that have a simple and reliable gear handling mechanism doesn't mean they will match each other, gear for gear. The ability to score gears is hugely dependent on driver skill, robot maneuverability, and speed of alignment with the reloading station and the lifter. With most gear mechanisms functioning fairly similarly this year, driver ability will make all the difference.

As far as fuel processing in the boiler, 5 per second is just the average. Dump 50 fuel in there and it will sort them and be clear before you have another 50 fuel ready to dump. I would not consider the fuel processing time the limiting factor, even for an elite fuel scoring robot.

[Raysaran]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

Making a refined and very efficient fuel shooter will be a good plan this year. The thing is...how many teams can actually do that, of the number that attempt it? My guess is not very many. It is not a trivial task.

I think people are overestimating the difficulty level of shooting. These balls shot really nicely and since they are light, you can get up to the rate of 4-5 balls per shooter with tuning.

[MrForbes]

I know that shooting them is easy. The hard parts are getting them to the shooter quickly and consistently, and aiming at the goal so most of the balls go in.