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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-01-2017, 15:54
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Re: Inspection Stories

As an inspector the weirdest thing was probably this
https://scontent.fybz1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...d1&oe=59099038
They tried to use it too adjust the height of a pneumatic cylinder. We couldn't find anything illegal about it so they ended up being allowed to use it. They also wanted to mount a old school wireless security camera to the robot and carry a small CRT monitor on their driver station. Obviously we didn't allow that.

Also I'd bet 95% of teams have a incorrectly filled out BOM (or whatever they changed the acronym to). No matter how old the team is or how many times they've been on Einstein I still see teams putting KOP items on the BOM and forgetting expensive items like sensors. I usually don't make a fuss about it as it's almost impossible to go over budget and more times than not the budget is lower than what was listed on the BOM. Same goes for the pressure relief valve, you don't even know how many teams I inspected didn't set it at all or didn't even know how to set it.

As a student the worst experience I've had (and one of the reasons I like to inspect nowadays) was when a inspector spent literally an hour trying to figure out if the wire on our CIM motors from the KOP were too small because they did not list the gauge on the wire. We tried to explain that even if they were too small it would be illegal to modify them to no avail. I understand simple mistakes but this was just silly.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 15:56
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Re: Inspection Stories

As a mentor:
  • 2011: I had started helping in the late fall. This was the last year of the former lead mentor. We got to the NYC Regional and we were pretty sure our robot was about half an inch too tall. The following conversation happened:
    "Your robot is too tall."
    "How can you tell? It's still in the bag."
    "It's not even close. It's way too tall.
    Turns out our "rules guy" had interpreted 60 inches as 6 feet. I learned a lot from that year, including "everybody needs to know the rules" and "inspect the robot before the end of build season". We never would have touched the field that year if it hadn't been for 1626's help.
  • 2014?: As you can probably guess based on 2011, we had been struggling. One of our goals this year was to not be getting inspected in a huge rush right before opening ceremonies. We had the robot ready to go, with just enough time to go get inspected and queue up for our last scheduled practice match. The inspection took nearly two hours (on an extremely simple robot), and the inspector never did find anything wrong. He was quizzing the students on just about every component of the robot. This experience was part of what motivated me to start volunteering to do inspections.
  • 2015: We got through inspection with no issues, but at our second competition our pit was next to a team we usually wouldn't have been near, and they were having an even more challenging year than we did in 2011. All their components (except wiring) were legal, but they were going to fail inspection in a variety of ways, including size. We worked with them to get their robot legal (and after their first match, even to get it working). One of the inspectors stayed nearby and inspected as things got fixed, and one of the last problems we realized was that their frame didn't fit the transport size requirements. The inspector and one of the other mentors were discussing with the other team ways of cutting and reassembling the frame, but we found a simpler method - we flipped it on its side. It fit, and the robot was already on its way to the field before the inspection paperwork was even signed.

As an inspector:
  • Teams that have no idea what the relevant rules for their robot are
  • Not really related to the robot itself, but amusing: after telling a mentor of another team that they needed to fix the way their bumpers were mounted (and helping them figure out how to do so), the mentor was grumbling to another mentor of my team that "your safety captain just failed our robot". I was 31.
  • I convinced a team that was finishing their second district event that they needed to bag up their robot in case they got a slot at DCMP. They thought I was out of my mind, but did it anyway. Next weekend, I got to inspect them at DCMP.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 15:57
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Re: Inspection Stories

My favorite inspection story:

-Load into building as early as physically possible
-Get pit prepped and robot with no modifications necessary ready to be inspected
-Wait for event LRI to eventually communicate how to commence with inspections, with challenges that range from "stand in a long line" to "guess the neon hat with the proper form" to "just wait, we'll be right there".
-Keep waiting for an hour
-Inspector comes, gets through inspection except for something like the pressure release valve or a sharp corner
-Inspector disappears into the ether, never to be seen again until <15 minutes before the day is over
-I get really hungry and sad at some point

Repeat like, 4 or 5 times.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 16:01
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by mman1506 View Post
As an inspector the weirdest thing was probably this
https://scontent.fybz1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...d1&oe=59099038
They tried to use it too adjust the height of a pneumatic cylinder. We couldn't find anything illegal about it so they ended up being allowed to use it.
If the servo fully closed that valve, was the system plumbed such that all air could still be vented via the pressure relief valve? If not, you could have a problem.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 16:04
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgerstein View Post
As a mentor:
[list][*]

As an inspector:
  • Teams that have no idea what the relevant rules for their robot are
Since you are an inspector, you already know this, but for others. An inspection check list is published towards the end of build season. You robot will be inspected to it. It covers 95% of the rules. Use the inspection check list before your robot goes in the bag.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 16:06
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmangels17 View Post
If the servo fully closed that valve, was the system plumbed such that all air could still be vented via the pressure relief valve? If not, you could have a problem.
It was connected to a tee between the cylinder and the solenoid output.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 16:07
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgerstein View Post
I convinced a team that was finishing their second district event that they needed to bag up their robot in case they got a slot at DCMP. They thought I was out of my mind, but did it anyway. Next weekend, I got to inspect them at DCMP.
This just reminded me of a time at North Star... We were busy doing finals reinspections. It was just before Alliance selection, and one of my inspectors comes up and asks how we get the big door to the loading dock open. When I asked why, he said a team was trying to leave. So I run up there and start talking to the team. After all, alliance selection hasn't happened yet, why not wait just half an hour?

The team was very straightforward - they knew their robot capabilities and knew they wouldn't get picked. They had a long drive home ahead of them and wanted to get started. I could understand their reasoning, but still didn't really want to let them to leave and miss out on a potential opportunity to be playing that afternoon.

I finally asked what their ranking was, figuring if it was dead last I would give up and let them leave. Nope, they were ranked 11. My mouth dropped open, and I probably looked like a fish gasping for water after it was caught. I told them they would probably be alliance captains, to get back to their pit and put together a pick list. They were captains of the 7th seed and had a great time that afternoon.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 16:34
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Re: Inspection Stories

Back when my daughter was on a team, she was scared to death of one particular inspector. She was the nicest lady, but did have an imposing presence and was known to be thorough. They always passed, and the inspector complemented them on knowing so much about the wiring rules.

If the team was doing something I considered slightly sketchy, I'd ask them, "Do you want to try to get that past Mr. Patton?"

And later as a head ref, I had several conversations with the LRI to see if I agreed with his interpretations of the rules. I always backed him up.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 16:54
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag View Post
They really need to stop hassling 15+ year veteran teams who know what they are doing
I was an RI at Worlds last year. Wandering around aimlessly trying to be helpful. I noticed a team using a propane torch. I think to myself: "Are open flames legal?". Told an LRI.

It was a veteran team that got a good talking to.

Quote:
and focus on the rookies who need the help.
I tend to cut the rookie teams a little slack (something like Team Number size on the bumper is a little off), just because they have a hard enough time with the big picture. I'm harder on the veteran teams because they should know better.

I RI at Wisconsin, which tends to be late in the season. Most teams have already competed at another regional. It seems like every year I find a violation that was missed at the prior regional. They complain, so I get the LRI involved to confirm the problem.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 17:17
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 View Post
I was an RI at Worlds last year. Wandering around aimlessly trying to be helpful. I noticed a team using a propane torch. I think to myself: "Are open flames legal?". Told an LRI.

It was a veteran team that got a good talking to.
Ahh, fun times. I have a picture from that (about 10 LRI's waiting for them in their pit before pits open).

Quote:
I RI at Wisconsin, which tends to be late in the season. Most teams have already competed at another regional. It seems like every year I find a violation that was missed at the prior regional. They complain, so I get the LRI involved to confirm the problem.
Be careful with those assumptions. 35/54 teams at Wisconsin are going to be competing for the first time this year, so most teams will be going through their first inspection! Even at a later regional over half may be attending their first (or only) event. At North Star this year (week 6), 33/60 are going to be inspected for the first time, which might actually be the lowest that number has ever been. Even in the last regional event of the year, Seven Rivers in week 7, 13/48 teams will be competing at their only event.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 17:31
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Re: Inspection Stories

We were at a Regional event several years back in the first year that there was a "size limit" on the operator interface. I believe that the dimensions included a width of 12" for the interface. Our inspector measured ours at 1/8 of an inch over and would not pass us. (Students had designed the interface and had forgotten that when you have a 12 inch plate size and you attach 1/16" pieces on the outside of it, you don't get 12")

The only issue I had (having inspected for a number of years myself...) was that the inspector just stood and looked at us as if we could somehow shrink our fabricated, riveted interface while he watched. I know what I would have done as an inspector and that was talk to the LRI and ask the team to fix it for the next regional.

I talked about it with the team and I decided that we did not have the ability to remake the interface at the event. I went back to the inspector and told him that we would not be able to compete at the event.

in a short time, the inspector came over and told us that we just needed to fix it before the next event.

It consistently amazes me that some teams are treated differently than others. Younger teams get on the field with lots of violations.... and as long as they don't give a competitive advantage, that's fine with me.

Last year we were dinged for using a "Medieval Style numbering on our bumpers... the maker of the numbers had "cleared" the style... or so we were told.... they were ironed on....

This time we were allowed to compete...(it seems that all of the strokes in the numbers were not 1/2" thick.... in the eyes of the inspector)
We had to completely remake two sets of bumpers... at a cost of about $150 in materials and 2 hours of time.

When we attended the district championship, there were 2 robots with the same medieval numbers....at St. Louis, I counted at least 6 teams using them.

Sometimes it doesn't help to be a higher profile team.
I respect the inspectors and know they get tired and they are really trying.
I inspect myself.... both at district events and at CMP...
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Unread 24-01-2017, 17:47
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Re: Inspection Stories

Not an inspector; this from the perspective of a student. Unpopular opinion: I love long inspections. I love explaining how the robot works and showing why this thing that looks illegal is actually perfectly fine.

My favorite inspection was at 2016 MAR Montgomery. We made a slight, perfectly legal change but accidentally forgot to get reinspected before we went out for our next match. An RI sitting on the side of the field noticed and brought it to our attention. The head ref, FTA, and LRI were very nice and let us play the match anyway because the change was obviously legal, provided that we get a complete reinspection after the match. The RI came back with us to our pit and made us show that we satisfied every single robot rule in the manual (more than just the standard inspection checklist). We had to show that our bumpers could be taken off and put back on again by 2 people in under 5 minutes (we got in just under 4 iirc). We had to give data sheets for every non-vex or andymark part we used. I think this was the inspector's way of having fun now that the majority of his job was done, but it was fun for me anyway.

I consistently see teams (both rookie and veteran) whose robots break a number of rules and inspectors don't notice because it's not something specifically on the checklist. I would love to see more thorough inspections if FIRST allotted more time for it.


EDIT: I just want to be clear in saying that I was friends with this inspector and continue to be friends with him. If we had a match that we needed to get to, I am (90%) sure he would have quickly redone the inspection and been on his way. We didn't have any upcoming matches so he thought it would be fun to torture us. In the end, it was good because he made some suggestions for how to improve our robot and what rules we should make sure we don't violate. This was a good learning experience and prepared us for inspection at Champs.

I am still a supporter of longer inspections, but I do like the idea proposed in the following post that inspectors should do as much of the inspection as they can by themselves before asking students to help for time-saving reasons. I regularly walk around the pits looking at how other teams' robots work and I rarely need to ask questions. An keen-eyed observer can make out most of the details on a FIRST robot even from outside the pit surrounded by a full-team pit crew.
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Last edited by Ari423 : 24-01-2017 at 19:36.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 18:42
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Re: Inspection Stories

The above post exemplifies the issues I have with the inspection process: Inspectors amusing themselves at the expense of the team's frustration and time lost.

I've inspected on and off since 2005. 50% of the inspection I could do from outside the pit area. Another 30% I could answer myself by visual observation and I never had to speak to anyone. The last 20% I could complete with the students in 10 mins.

Leave the questioning for the judges.
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Last edited by sanddrag : 24-01-2017 at 18:46.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 18:56
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Re: Inspection Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag View Post
The above post exemplifies the issues I have with the inspection process: Inspectors amusing themselves at the expense of the team's frustration and time lost.

I've inspected on and off since 2005. 50% of the inspection I could do from outside the pit area. Another 30% I could answer myself by visual observation and I never had to speak to anyone. The last 20% I could complete with the students in 10 mins.

Leave the questioning for the judges.
I agree with you.... As inspectors we are tasked with using the inspection sheet and determining a satisfactory inspection. As an inspector I feel that something not on the sheet "might" be brought up to the LRI but unless it seems that some unfair advantage is gained, I would comment to FIRST and let them make a change to the inspection sheet.

My task as inspector is to get robots and teams onto the floor and let them have a good time. I want to make sure that they are playing by the rules as they are evidenced in my task to inspect but a team has so many things to do besides talk to an inspector, I would be very leery of wasting their time on this kind of stuff.

If an inspector asked me to prove that we could take off our bumpers in the time alloted.... I would first wonder why I am being subjected to this....
The reason that the rule is there is for quick turnaround on the field..... or for the inspection process....

Sometimes inspectors do NOT take the rules in the context of why they were written. We should make sure the rules are followed but not at the expense of taking away valuable time from a team....

As inspectors, it is necessary for us to understand WHY we are there....
To get teams safely and fairly onto the field....

My best times as inspector are always helping teams that don't understand the rules and often have few resources, get compliant and make it to the field to play.
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Unread 24-01-2017, 19:16
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Ben Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond reputeBen Martin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Inspection Stories

Most of our inspections have gone ok, but these two were the worst:

- having to move hour high pressure gauge to the compressor output of the 120 psi side because there supposedly was a decrease in pressure between that spot and where we had it installed elsewhere on the 120 psi side (there isn't).

- having to explain that including more than one Talon SRX on the robot and not accounting for any of them on the BOM was perfectly legal because they are KOP items

It can also be incredibly aggravating as a team when an inspector tries to make the inspection a teaching moment, but the team needs to get the inspection done so the can get to practice matches. I know one example where one poor team had to endure 1.5 hours of this.

Since I'm not coaching this year, I volunteered as an inspector for the competitions I'm attending to try and minimize these aggravations.
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