Go to Post One of these years, the game piece will be an actual red herring. - Taylor [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Technical Discussion
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-01-2017, 16:36
Oblarg Oblarg is online now
Registered User
AKA: Eli Barnett
FRC #0449 (The Blair Robot Project)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,116
Oblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop

Quote:
Originally Posted by engunneer View Post
You could say the same thing about pneumatic solenoids or pressure regulators or motors that are similar to legal motors but not on the list, or fans, or, or, or. That's why we have rules that define what is and isn't legal.
The rules you compare this to have an explicit list of legal products.

Here, the distinction comes down to an arbitrary distinction in manufacturing method that may or may not be able to be ascertained for any given product.

There's a world of difference between the two.
__________________
"Mmmmm, chain grease and aluminum shavings..."
"The breakfast of champions!"

Member, FRC Team 449: 2007-2010
Drive Mechanics Lead, FRC Team 449: 2009-2010
Alumnus/Technical Mentor, FRC Team 449: 2010-Present
Lead Technical Mentor, FRC Team 4464: 2012-2015
Technical Mentor, FRC Team 5830: 2015-2016
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-01-2017, 00:09
Retired Starman Retired Starman is offline
Registered User
FRC #3573 (Ohms)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Stone Mountain, GA
Posts: 169
Retired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant futureRetired Starman has a brilliant future
Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
I will state again that if the pragmatic effect of this rule is that functionally-equivalent products from different brands have differing legality, and so teams who didn't happen to purchase the right brand of velcro are in violation of the rule, then it is a bad rule and should be changed.

There are lots of products where it's probably nearly impossible to ascertain the legality under the current ruling, as well.
As with all items not explicitly mentioned in the rules, it is up to the team to prove to the Robot Inspectors that the item is legal. This is best done by showing a product sheet describing the product in terms that agree with the rules. So if you are using a hook and loop fastener product on your robot, perhaps you should bring a product sheet from that particular manufacturer with the same model number that appears on the invoice you have for its purchase. If that product sheet meets the description of a FIRST compliant rope, and doesn't violate any of the legal descriptions ( a WOVEN stainless steel rope would not be legal, just because it's woven), then you have a much better chance of making the LRI happy.

If, however, you have just any old hook and loop, and try to use Velcro's description of a very particular product which is woven, then expect some careful and pointed questioning. At my events, you will need to show that you, in fact, are using the product described in the product sheet.
__________________
Dr. Bob
Chairman's Award is not about building the robot. Every team builds a robot.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-01-2017, 11:51
Mr.Krafty Mr.Krafty is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3
Mr.Krafty is an unknown quantity at this point
Smile Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop

I believer these two sources should be legal for the rope. they are knitted loop fasteners that are sewn. Knitting is knots and they are a uniform hook system through the entire length.

http://cascade-usa.com/double-face-k...tape-4958.html

http://store.friddles.com/browse.cfm...rl/4,2397.html

Regards,
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-01-2017, 14:45
efoote868 efoote868 is offline
foote stepped in
AKA: E. Foote
FRC #0868
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 1,427
efoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
I will state again that if the pragmatic effect of this rule is that functionally-equivalent products from different brands have differing legality, and so teams who didn't happen to purchase the right brand of velcro are in violation of the rule, then it is a bad rule and should be changed.

There are lots of products where it's probably nearly impossible to ascertain the legality under the current ruling, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
Here, the distinction comes down to an arbitrary distinction in manufacturing method that may or may not be able to be ascertained for any given product.
Personally, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why there is still any controversy. FIRST has a default rope for any and every team that elects not to bring their own. FIRST also allows teams to fabricate their own ropes (emphasis on the PLURALITY of ropes that teams are allowed to bring to competition and have inspected), as well as share. Getting a single rope of the many ropes teams are allowed to bring to pass inspections isn't a requirement for teams to compete. There isn't a requirement that the ropes be identical either. There is no requirement that a rope contains a component of hook and loop fastener either.

The rule is pretty clear on characteristics of materials that are allowed in a rope, as well as how teams can fabricate their rope. Any team that shows up to an event with a rope containing illegal materials, and I'm certain there will be multiple of teams there to help them fabricate a legal rope or loan them a spare.
__________________

Be Healthy. Never Stop Learning. Say It Like It Is. Own It. Like our values? Flexware Innovation is hiring!. We're looking for Senior Automation, Software, and System Engineers. Check us out!
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-01-2017, 15:04
Oblarg Oblarg is online now
Registered User
AKA: Eli Barnett
FRC #0449 (The Blair Robot Project)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,116
Oblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond reputeOblarg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop

Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 View Post
Personally, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why there is still any controversy. FIRST has a default rope for any and every team that elects not to bring their own. FIRST also allows teams to fabricate their own ropes (emphasis on the PLURALITY of ropes that teams are allowed to bring to competition and have inspected), as well as share. Getting a single rope of the many ropes teams are allowed to bring to pass inspections isn't a requirement for teams to compete. There isn't a requirement that the ropes be identical either. There is no requirement that a rope contains a component of hook and loop fastener either.

The rule is pretty clear on characteristics of materials that are allowed in a rope, as well as how teams can fabricate their rope. Any team that shows up to an event with a rope containing illegal materials, and I'm certain there will be multiple of teams there to help them fabricate a legal rope or loan them a spare.
That it will likely be possible to work around the badness of the rule does not make the rule not bad.
__________________
"Mmmmm, chain grease and aluminum shavings..."
"The breakfast of champions!"

Member, FRC Team 449: 2007-2010
Drive Mechanics Lead, FRC Team 449: 2009-2010
Alumnus/Technical Mentor, FRC Team 449: 2010-Present
Lead Technical Mentor, FRC Team 4464: 2012-2015
Technical Mentor, FRC Team 5830: 2015-2016
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:33.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi