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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-01-2017, 15:24
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Re: Efficient Points

Gears are only more efficient for the first 3 rotors. The last rotor is super inefficient. I know that in a district match a single robot wont be able to get that far, but when you're moving to championship eliminations every alliance will be able to cap out all rotors.

After this climbing is the most important. If your alliance has 2 robots that can climb, but another has 3 then it will be very difficult to win.

Finally, when your in finals at a championship and both alliance can cap out all the rotors as well as have 3 robots that can climb, the winning alliance is the one that can shoot fuel.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:31
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by ldsedam View Post
Gears are only more efficient for the first 3 rotors. The last rotor is super inefficient. I know that in a district match a single robot wont be able to get that far, but when you're moving to championship eliminations every alliance will be able to cap out all rotors.

After this climbing is the most important. If your alliance has 2 robots that can climb, but another has 3 then it will be very difficult to win.

Finally, when your in finals at a championship and both alliance can cap out all the rotors as well as have 3 robots that can climb, the winning alliance is the one that can shoot fuel.
Some things to add on to this:

1. Whether or not your robot can shoot fuel is a very different decision than whether or not your alliance can shoot fuel. You can recognize that fuel shooting is an aspect of the game that may be required at certain levels of play without doing it yourself necessarily.

2. At no point will a single robot score all 12 gears by itself this season. It will be quite rare for two of them to score 12 gears without some help from the 3rd (e.g. dropping a gear on the ground for them to pick up).
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:39
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
2. At no point will a single robot score all 12 gears by itself this season.
Assuming a 3 Gear auto, that is only scoring 9 Gears in Teleop. World class teams can probably pull off a 3 Gear auto, and powerhouse teams could probably do 9-10 Gears in Teleop.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:43
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Re: Efficient Points

I think everybody is over estimating climbing.

How many climbers did you think were needed last year on an winning alliance?

Who thought that a triple balance was needed in 2012 to win?

I think climbing is going to be important, but I don't think it's a must have on a robot. I get that this thread is about efficient scoring and the climb certainly is that, but it's also the most difficult climbing task I've ever seen.

Attaching to that rope is going to be much harder that everyone's prototypes are showing. Practice will help but you're not always going to have a clear line of site and your addrenalin is going to be pumping and it's going to take longer to acquire the rope that people are thinking.

How many teams climbed consistently last year? Not many and climbing last year was exponentially easier than this year as the object you had to grab didn't move it was rigid and always in the same place. You cannot count on that this year.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:52
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by EricLeifermann View Post
I think everybody is over estimating climbing. ...
I think this is true for early weeks. However, I think designs will all converge on a single-motor large-error cheesecake design by DCMPs. Who knows what that design is, but it won't be kept a secret forever.

I really wish Cheesecake wasn't a 'thing' .
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:54
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by EricLeifermann View Post
I think everybody is over estimating climbing.

How many climbers did you think were needed last year on an winning alliance?

Who thought that a triple balance was needed in 2012 to win?

I think climbing is going to be important, but I don't think it's a must have on a robot. I get that this thread is about efficient scoring and the climb certainly is that, but it's also the most difficult climbing task I've ever seen.

Attaching to that rope is going to be much harder that everyone's prototypes are showing. Practice will help but you're not always going to have a clear line of site and your addrenalin is going to be pumping and it's going to take longer to acquire the rope that people are thinking.

How many teams climbed consistently last year? Not many and climbing last year was exponentially easier than this year as the object you had to grab didn't move it was rigid and always in the same place. You cannot count on that this year.
Honestly I disagree with almost all of this.

Last year, climbing was worth scoring two game pieces in teleop.

You basically DID need a triple balance in 2012 to win. I mean not for the strict definition of need, not to the detriment of the rest of your play, but at the highest, non-corrupted-by-hacking levels of play, it was essential. Even so, triple balancing could be beat by scoring seven balls in teleop - a fairly steep number but elite shooters like 1717 and 2826 (heh) could do it.

This year, making up a one climb deficit can be done by scoring 150 fuel in teleop, or by getting 1 more rotor turning plus 30 fuel. I think that is a lot more comparable to 2012 than 2016, and currently, it's essential.

I would compare the value of hanging this year to the value in 2004 - you need to be absolutely top tier at something else as an alliance to justify not doing it. I think every robot on a viable alliance at moderate to high level play will need to do it.

(I also have some opinions on the difficulty of climbing this year, but I'll hold those back for awhile)
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:54
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Re: Efficient Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricLeifermann View Post
I think everybody is over estimating climbing.

How many climbers did you think were needed last year on an winning alliance?

Who thought that a triple balance was needed in 2012 to win?

I think climbing is going to be important, but I don't think it's a must have on a robot. I get that this thread is about efficient scoring and the climb certainly is that, but it's also the most difficult climbing task I've ever seen.

Attaching to that rope is going to be much harder that everyone's prototypes are showing. Practice will help but you're not always going to have a clear line of site and your addrenalin is going to be pumping and it's going to take longer to acquire the rope that people are thinking.

How many teams climbed consistently last year? Not many and climbing last year was exponentially easier than this year as the object you had to grab didn't move it was rigid and always in the same place. You cannot count on that this year.
I would argue 2013 was a lot harder climb than this year. I get what you mean on people overestimating this though. Many teams are going to have unreliable climbers and many more aren't going to make proper aiming guides.

I do however think it's a lot different than most games in terms of just how many points climbing is worth. Assuming both alliances can get 12 gears, it takes 150 high goal shots just to break even with one climber. If you somehow get three robots in the air, that's 450 high goals. It's also more reliable of points than triple balance was back in 2012 since it's reliant on individual robots. I think that as you get further along the weeks of competition season, if you don't have a working climber, I recommend saving weight and space for one to be cheesecaked on you.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 15:57
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Re: Efficient Points

Climbing this year does not seem to be that difficult. Or maybe our prototype is just lucky.

I mean, the rope is right there in front of you. You just drive into it, and run the winch. No need to reach up.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 16:12
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by Rangel View Post
I would argue 2013 was a lot harder climb than this year. I get what you mean on people overestimating this though. Many teams are going to have unreliable climbers and many more aren't going to make proper aiming guides.

I do however think it's a lot different than most games in terms of just how many points climbing is worth. Assuming both alliances can get 12 gears, it takes 150 high goal shots just to break even with one climber. If you somehow get three robots in the air, that's 450 high goals. It's also more reliable of points than triple balance was back in 2012 since it's reliant on individual robots. I think that as you get further along the weeks of competition season, if you don't have a working climber, I recommend saving weight and space for one to be cheesecaked on you.
Its not more difficult in the mechanisms and engineering required to actually climb, in that case its one of the easiest. Its the most difficult in that its a non static element that you are trying to acquire. The engineering in this climb comes from the acquisition. proper weight balance of the robot, and making sure your observant of the steel channel in the middle of the pressure pad.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 16:19
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by ToddF View Post
Our goal is to score 4 RP in our qualification matches. Breaking it down:
- 1RP from 40kPA fuel
- 1RP from 12 gears
- 2RP from winning a match
+1

- 1RP from 40kPA fuel - targeting at least 20 in auto and rest in teleop (less than two total loads)...optimizing up to 40 in auto.
- 1RP from 12 gears - switch to gears (from floor or feed station) to complete this...or go back to fuel if under control and on target.
- 2RP from winning a match - stay ahead on kPA if opposing alliance is on par with rotors - and climb.

Great discussion on this thread...good to see the diversity.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 16:38
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Re: Efficient Points

I see a lot of people in this thread comparing gears this year to the defenses last year.However, this year there are some key differences that make gears much more valuable.

Last year, one robot could break every defense and still have half the match to do stuff. This effectively meant that after week one, if you only did the defenses, you were not a very good robot. Other teams could be more efficient and both break the defenses and score a bunch of points.

This year gears are very different. One robot cannot do all of the gears. This means that much more of the match could be spent for a robot scoring gears. The lack of scoring fuel is not a problem because every second of the match is still spent scoring points at an equal or higher rate than fuel.

A good fuel robot can acquire fuel from everywhere, but a good gear robot can only get gears from the feeder station. That means that if a team does not have a gear bot, their fuel bots will need to waste time crossing the field to get those valuable gear points.

A good fuel robot will be able to score gears by its self, but it will still be valuable to the alliance to have a gear bot.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 17:35
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by cj3958 View Post
I see a lot of people in this thread comparing gears this year to the defenses last year.However, this year there are some key differences that make gears much more valuable.
I agree 100%... in no ways are gears this year's Defenses.

The alignment actions for acquiring and placing gears are non-trivial and placing gears requires specific upper assemblies. Additionally, like several people have mentioned, spinning all 4 rotors will be a very rare event, except for the very best District/Regional alliances and for the better alliances in quals and elims at DCMP and CMP.

Also, I do not think 4 rotors will be a "given" at DCMP or CMP... particularly given that there are 12 divisions across the two CMP's this year. Many regarded the capture rates from last year similarly, but the elim capture rates were:

Curie: 79.4%
Einstein: 72.2%
Carson: 71.8%
Newton: 65.6%
Hopper: 60.7%
Galileo: 56.3%
Carver: 52.94%
Tesla: 43.3%
Archimedes: 36.7%
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Unread 25-01-2017, 17:47
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by Monochron View Post
Assuming a 3 Gear auto, that is only scoring 9 Gears in Teleop. World class teams can probably pull off a 3 Gear auto, and powerhouse teams could probably do 9-10 Gears in Teleop.
Ha.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 17:57
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by Monochron View Post
Assuming a 3 Gear auto, that is only scoring 9 Gears in Teleop. World class teams can probably pull off a 3 Gear auto, and powerhouse teams could probably do 9-10 Gears in Teleop.
My historical data shows me this is not going to happen.

A 3 gear auto is possible IF the two alliance partners agree to just set their gears on their bumpers and drive away in Auto.

Every historical game I compare the gear cycle shows me there is no way a team will AVERAGE 8 or 9 gears a match by themselves. Some may do it once or twice the entire season.


No team will do 12 by themselves between teleop and Auton. This is 2017's Lochness Monster.
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Unread 25-01-2017, 18:02
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Re: Efficient Points

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Originally Posted by Paul Copioli View Post
No team will do 12 by themselves between teleop and Auton. This is 2017's Lochness Monster.
So does the true bet become "how many teams will claim 12 gears per match in pit scouting?"
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