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Unread 29-01-2017, 16:44
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by CalTran View Post
If you can convince an alliance partner to give up theirs and somehow support it fully and drop it in a reliable manner, go for it.
You just need the partner to have the gear half on top of their bot, so that when auto starts it slides off. You'd need a floor gear pickup of course, but after that, finding the gear on the floor shouldn't be too hard considering that it's bright yellow
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Unread 29-01-2017, 19:47
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by euhlmann View Post
You just need the partner to have the gear half on top of their bot, so that when auto starts it slides off. You'd need a floor gear pickup of course, but after that, finding the gear on the floor shouldn't be too hard considering that it's bright yellow
Another way to get a GEAR from an alliance partner is to recreate the LIFT on your robot. Lots of robots are relying on the Human Player to lift the GEAR out of their robot already. So a horizontal rod on a vertical actuator might be easier to work with than expecting the alliance partner to drop the GEAR and pick it up then score it. But either way, I still consider placing a GEAR and scoring FUEL to be more beneficial than scoring two GEARs.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 19:52
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss View Post
Another way to get a GEAR from an alliance partner is to recreate the LIFT on your robot. Lots of robots are relying on the Human Player to lift the GEAR out of their robot already. So a horizontal rod on a vertical actuator might be easier to work with than expecting the alliance partner to drop the GEAR and pick it up then score it. But either way, I still consider placing a GEAR and scoring FUEL to be more beneficial than scoring two GEARs.
If your partner can place a gear onto a lift, they should just do it on an actual lift. If they can't place a gear onto a lift, then this strategy isn't helpful. If they're 50-50, this is only good if it's somehow easier to place onto your robot than the actual lift, and even then, was it worth all that extra effort?
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Unread 29-01-2017, 20:34
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
If your partner can place a gear onto a lift, they should just do it on an actual lift. If they can't place a gear onto a lift, then this strategy isn't helpful. If they're 50-50, this is only good if it's somehow easier to place onto your robot than the actual lift, and even then, was it worth all that extra effort?
Nope. Not at all. As I said, scoring a GEAR and FUEL is far more helpful. But if for some reason a team decides that scoring two GEARs is important, there's more than one way to do it.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 20:51
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Is it possible? Perhaps. Is it really worth it? Probably not. It's much easier to cheesecake a gear holder onto a pushbot rather than come up with a complex auto that drops off a gear, finds and picks up another one, and then navigates back to the peg within about 10 sec (it takes a bit of time to get the gear on and start up the rotor). It's much easier on the human players and the robots if three robots are placing one gear each.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 21:16
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Cheesecaking a box is easier than cheesecaking a camera and autonomous code to place the gear on a peg. I'd say, cheesecake a "drive forward" bit of auto code for teams that can't do that, and ask them to place their gear precariously on their bumper.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 21:29
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

G27. One-GEAR limit. ROBOTS may not control more than one GEAR at a time.
Violation: FOUL. If strategic, TECH FOUL and YELLOW CARD.

I mayou just be reading the thread here wrong but it seems add if this rule has been over looked.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 21:33
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by arichman1257 View Post

I mayou just be reading the thread here wrong but it seems add if this rule has been over looked.
One GEAR at a time does not preclude multi-GEAR autonomous.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 21:34
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by arichman1257 View Post
G27. One-GEAR limit. ROBOTS may not control more than one GEAR at a time.
Violation: FOUL. If strategic, TECH FOUL and YELLOW CARD.

I mayou just be reading the thread here wrong but it seems add if this rule has been over looked.
Nothing stops you from going back to grab a second or third from your alliance partners. Same rule somewhat applied last year for Boulders, but that didn't stop a few teams from pioneering 2 ball autos.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 22:13
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

2 gear auto probably only makes sense in Champs elims, because it's mainly useful as bonus points in excess of a hopper dumping high goal auto.

First, 2 gear auto is only useful if you're going for 3 total gears in auto. Otherwise the second gear is useless and you should have shot fuel instead of fetched it. Yes, I'm assuming a 2 gear auto team could also gear + high goal. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

Second, you need a reason to do it. Scenarios:
1. All three robots can auto gear, 2 can gear + fuel. Call this +40 for gears, +16 for fuel. So +56 in this case.
2. Third pick can't auto. +20 gears, +16 fuel. +36
3. Third pick can't auto, someone can hopper + shoot. say that's an extra +25 fuel over #2. +61 for this auto.
4. Third pick can't auto, so you need to auto for it to get 3 gears. +40 gears, + 8 fuel, +48 points.
5. Third pick can auto, 2nd can hopper, 1st can 2 gear. +40 gears, +33 fuel. +77 total.

5 is the winner, but only works if you have two highly auto capable robots on the alliance, and a 3rd competent robot. Needless to say, this is a rare alliance.
4 is another 2 gear auto. But if you're in this situation and can pick between 2 gear auto and hopper + shoot, you should hopper + shoot unless you have terrible accuracy.

Basically, if you can catch and hit enough balls from the hopper to make +20 points, you should be refining that auto first, since it's useful in many more situations. If you get that dialed, then you should think about a 2 gear auto, though you'll probably never use it.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 08:45
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by CalTran View Post
Nothing stops you from going back to grab a second or third from your alliance partners. Same rule somewhat applied last year for Boulders, but that didn't stop a few teams from pioneering 2 ball autos.
I know but it seemed like that rule was being over looked. And the only way to do it would involve a gear picker upper thing. Then you have to me the robot find the gear on the floor where ever it will be and then accurately pick it up in the time allotted. If you can make your robot score a gear and go back to pick up another from the ground and then score it, more power to you.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 09:46
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by arichman1257 View Post
I know but it seemed like that rule was being over looked. And the only way to do it would involve a gear picker upper thing. Then you have to me the robot find the gear on the floor where ever it will be and then accurately pick it up in the time allotted. If you can make your robot score a gear and go back to pick up another from the ground and then score it, more power to you.
All very true, except the overlooking thing. Some teams have done (or are doing) all the things you listed.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 10:07
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
If your partner can place a gear onto a lift, they should just do it on an actual lift. If they can't place a gear onto a lift, then this strategy isn't helpful. If they're 50-50, this is only good if it's somehow easier to place onto your robot than the actual lift, and even then, was it worth all that extra effort?
Yes and no. If the two-gearer has a peg replica, the supplying robot doesn't need to be able to put a gear on a peg. (They need to have the mechanism, but it needs to work neither reliably nor in auto, which is an additional bar that many teams will miss.) Rather, the two-gearer can steer their peg into the gear rather than relying on the other guy to put the gear on the peg. That kind of holder, possibly with some sort of vision aid (that isn't the official tape and could confuse another robot) is also much easier to cheesecake, particularly on robots that struggle with the whole drive-straight issue. I'll say that having been that latter team.

That said, if you're going through that effort to make a two-gear auto peg, you might well be better served with a gear floor pickup that's useful at other times. I guess it'd mostly be about packaging at this point.

In terms of a second gear being less useful than fuel, absolutely, but realize that the team in question may not have that choice. It is possible to have a gear system capable of a two-gear auto and yet not have the capability do fuel handling in your robot. Also realize it's not always playoffs. (We're actually running into this right now: we have some vision targeting strength on the team and the climber and basic gearer are okay, but we're having fuel problems. Fitting a gear floor pickup might actually be better--meaning less likely to hurt our climbing and gear performance even if it doesn't work--than burning more time and tradeoffs trying to integrate fuel. It's not a trajectory I would've picked originally, but somehow it's Week 4.)
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Unread 30-01-2017, 10:57
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

TL;DR: practice 2-gear autons for quals, but if the 3rd partner and timing aren't right in elims then totally scrap it outright.

2 gear autons have a 'cool' factor. There will be the occasion where the robot places the 2nd gear with enough time remaining that it counts towards some more autonomous points, but it will be rare.

If the 2nd gear causes a robot to miss its 5-pt line crossing, a non-scoring 2-gear autonomous is a total bust. Otherwise non-scoring 2-gear autons don't save much time in teleop compared to the other sequences that can be done in autonomous. If a partner drops a gear for my team to deal with, is it a better long-term strategy for us to pick it up immediately or to instead move the robot down-field for the first gear cycle?

What if the gear were dropped on the side with the boiler, or near the airship where opponents couldn't see it?
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Unread 30-01-2017, 11:45
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Also keep in mind, you don't have 15 seconds to do this in Auto and get two rotors moving.

Even with two competent pilots, I expect nearly 3-5 seconds to get the last of three gears in place and rotated three times. (I say last because rotor one can be achieved while the last two gears are being collected)

Does not negate a two gear auto bot, but does add one more factor to make it harder.
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