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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-01-2017, 21:33
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Quote:
Originally Posted by arichman1257 View Post

I mayou just be reading the thread here wrong but it seems add if this rule has been over looked.
One GEAR at a time does not preclude multi-GEAR autonomous.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 21:34
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by arichman1257 View Post
G27. One-GEAR limit. ROBOTS may not control more than one GEAR at a time.
Violation: FOUL. If strategic, TECH FOUL and YELLOW CARD.

I mayou just be reading the thread here wrong but it seems add if this rule has been over looked.
Nothing stops you from going back to grab a second or third from your alliance partners. Same rule somewhat applied last year for Boulders, but that didn't stop a few teams from pioneering 2 ball autos.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 22:13
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

2 gear auto probably only makes sense in Champs elims, because it's mainly useful as bonus points in excess of a hopper dumping high goal auto.

First, 2 gear auto is only useful if you're going for 3 total gears in auto. Otherwise the second gear is useless and you should have shot fuel instead of fetched it. Yes, I'm assuming a 2 gear auto team could also gear + high goal. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

Second, you need a reason to do it. Scenarios:
1. All three robots can auto gear, 2 can gear + fuel. Call this +40 for gears, +16 for fuel. So +56 in this case.
2. Third pick can't auto. +20 gears, +16 fuel. +36
3. Third pick can't auto, someone can hopper + shoot. say that's an extra +25 fuel over #2. +61 for this auto.
4. Third pick can't auto, so you need to auto for it to get 3 gears. +40 gears, + 8 fuel, +48 points.
5. Third pick can auto, 2nd can hopper, 1st can 2 gear. +40 gears, +33 fuel. +77 total.

5 is the winner, but only works if you have two highly auto capable robots on the alliance, and a 3rd competent robot. Needless to say, this is a rare alliance.
4 is another 2 gear auto. But if you're in this situation and can pick between 2 gear auto and hopper + shoot, you should hopper + shoot unless you have terrible accuracy.

Basically, if you can catch and hit enough balls from the hopper to make +20 points, you should be refining that auto first, since it's useful in many more situations. If you get that dialed, then you should think about a 2 gear auto, though you'll probably never use it.
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Unread 29-01-2017, 22:35
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid View Post
One alliance gives up their pre loaded gear, puts on a specific spot inside the neutral zone, then the other alliance grabs it after putting a gear into the airship and then putting that second gear into your airship.
Manual section 4.2 Match Setup, item D precludes this from being legal (assuming you are talking about it being placed there before the match starts and a robot doesn't deposit it there in auto):

GEARS
D. One (1) available to each team to preload in their ROBOT (any not preloaded are
staged with GEARS in E)
E. Eighteen (18) in each LOADING LANE (staged on the carpet between the LOADING
STATION and the STARTING LINE)
F. One (1) in each AIRSHIP
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Unread 30-01-2017, 08:45
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalTran View Post
Nothing stops you from going back to grab a second or third from your alliance partners. Same rule somewhat applied last year for Boulders, but that didn't stop a few teams from pioneering 2 ball autos.
I know but it seemed like that rule was being over looked. And the only way to do it would involve a gear picker upper thing. Then you have to me the robot find the gear on the floor where ever it will be and then accurately pick it up in the time allotted. If you can make your robot score a gear and go back to pick up another from the ground and then score it, more power to you.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 09:46
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Quote:
Originally Posted by arichman1257 View Post
I know but it seemed like that rule was being over looked. And the only way to do it would involve a gear picker upper thing. Then you have to me the robot find the gear on the floor where ever it will be and then accurately pick it up in the time allotted. If you can make your robot score a gear and go back to pick up another from the ground and then score it, more power to you.
All very true, except the overlooking thing. Some teams have done (or are doing) all the things you listed.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 10:07
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
If your partner can place a gear onto a lift, they should just do it on an actual lift. If they can't place a gear onto a lift, then this strategy isn't helpful. If they're 50-50, this is only good if it's somehow easier to place onto your robot than the actual lift, and even then, was it worth all that extra effort?
Yes and no. If the two-gearer has a peg replica, the supplying robot doesn't need to be able to put a gear on a peg. (They need to have the mechanism, but it needs to work neither reliably nor in auto, which is an additional bar that many teams will miss.) Rather, the two-gearer can steer their peg into the gear rather than relying on the other guy to put the gear on the peg. That kind of holder, possibly with some sort of vision aid (that isn't the official tape and could confuse another robot) is also much easier to cheesecake, particularly on robots that struggle with the whole drive-straight issue. I'll say that having been that latter team.

That said, if you're going through that effort to make a two-gear auto peg, you might well be better served with a gear floor pickup that's useful at other times. I guess it'd mostly be about packaging at this point.

In terms of a second gear being less useful than fuel, absolutely, but realize that the team in question may not have that choice. It is possible to have a gear system capable of a two-gear auto and yet not have the capability do fuel handling in your robot. Also realize it's not always playoffs. (We're actually running into this right now: we have some vision targeting strength on the team and the climber and basic gearer are okay, but we're having fuel problems. Fitting a gear floor pickup might actually be better--meaning less likely to hurt our climbing and gear performance even if it doesn't work--than burning more time and tradeoffs trying to integrate fuel. It's not a trajectory I would've picked originally, but somehow it's Week 4.)
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Unread 30-01-2017, 10:57
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

TL;DR: practice 2-gear autons for quals, but if the 3rd partner and timing aren't right in elims then totally scrap it outright.

2 gear autons have a 'cool' factor. There will be the occasion where the robot places the 2nd gear with enough time remaining that it counts towards some more autonomous points, but it will be rare.

If the 2nd gear causes a robot to miss its 5-pt line crossing, a non-scoring 2-gear autonomous is a total bust. Otherwise non-scoring 2-gear autons don't save much time in teleop compared to the other sequences that can be done in autonomous. If a partner drops a gear for my team to deal with, is it a better long-term strategy for us to pick it up immediately or to instead move the robot down-field for the first gear cycle?

What if the gear were dropped on the side with the boiler, or near the airship where opponents couldn't see it?
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Unread 30-01-2017, 11:45
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Also keep in mind, you don't have 15 seconds to do this in Auto and get two rotors moving.

Even with two competent pilots, I expect nearly 3-5 seconds to get the last of three gears in place and rotated three times. (I say last because rotor one can be achieved while the last two gears are being collected)

Does not negate a two gear auto bot, but does add one more factor to make it harder.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 12:13
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Fields View Post
Also keep in mind, you don't have 15 seconds to do this in Auto and get two rotors moving.

Even with two competent pilots, I expect nearly 3-5 seconds to get the last of three gears in place and rotated three times. (I say last because rotor one can be achieved while the last two gears are being collected)

Does not negate a two gear auto bot, but does add one more factor to make it harder.
Ooooorrr, you place 2 gears on Rotor 2 first, than one pilot cranks Rotor 2 while the other pilot collects the last gear and slots it in Rotor 1. Then you just have to get a gear in Rotor 1 with enough time for 3 cranks on Rotor 2. Which probably means slotting Rotor 1 with 1-2 seconds left. So delivering the last gear with 4ish seconds left? Depends on how fast a pilot can lift a gear.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 12:27
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
If the 2nd gear causes a robot to miss its 5-pt line crossing, a non-scoring 2-gear autonomous is a total bust...
Agreed about everything except that I have trouble picturing how any reasonably-executed gear autonomous would fail to cross the baseline? (Unless the implication is that someone is pretty spectacularly missing their first gear, in which case they probably have other problems besides attempting a two-gear.) I do expect the few two-gears that show up to get more practice in quals than in elims; elim auton is a real dance this year.



Anyone with a Q&A code: Figure 2-1 still shows the baseline as partway down the barriers, whereas Figure 3-1 shows it at the barriers' edge. TU1 told us that the Field Tour placement (and Figure 2-1) is incorrect, and "the BASE LINE is shown as being directly next to the AIRSHIP when it’s actually out at the edge of the Barriers", but the figure doesn't yet reflect this. Also note the spelling of baseline changes to BASE LINE after page 13. I get no relevant Q&A hits for either spelling.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 12:35
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Ooooorrr, you place 2 gears on Rotor 2 first, than one pilot cranks Rotor 2 while the other pilot collects the last gear and slots it in Rotor 1. Then you just have to get a gear in Rotor 1 with enough time for 3 cranks on Rotor 2. Which probably means slotting Rotor 1 with 1-2 seconds left. So delivering the last gear with 4ish seconds left? Depends on how fast a pilot can lift a gear.
I briefly thought of this too but then I read the following in the game manual:

ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4. The order of GEAR placement within a ROTOR set is not important. To start ROTOR 1, the PILOT places the GEAR in the GEAR slot at the top of the STEAM TANK, opposite the stack light for ROTOR 1.

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Unread 30-01-2017, 12:48
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

I think the most common 2 rotor autonomous success will come from alliances where all three robots score a gear on separate lifts. They should be able to easily complete that task with plenty of time remaining in autonomous for two reasonably skilled pilots to finish the job.

A two gear autonomous by a single robot is only interesting if:
1) the robot scoring the other gear does it soon enough so that the pilots can focus on the exclusively on the final gear in the last 5 or 6 seconds and the 2 gear robot gets it there by then, and
2) it frees the 3rd robot up to get points the alliance would not otherwise score (probably fuel oriented).

This second point is important as it speaks to the consistency of the 2 gear autonomous. If on a given alliance, all three robots scoring a gear is very consistent and the 2 gear autonomous is somewhat less consistent at getting 2 rotors moving, are the other points the 3rd robot may score worth the risk?

This is one of the reasons I am really starting to like this game. There are a bunch of interesting trade-offs to consider.

Thanks,
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Unread 30-01-2017, 12:58
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
So delivering the last gear with 4ish seconds left? Depends on how fast a pilot can lift a gear.
Same thing I said previously. You don't have 15 seconds for the robot to do it's thing. You have 10-12 seconds with the last bit of time eaten up by the pilot placing the last gear and spinning the rotor 3 times before auto ends.
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Unread 30-01-2017, 13:12
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Re: 2 gear autonomous

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Originally Posted by Waz View Post
I briefly thought of this too but then I read the following in the game manual:

ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4. The order of GEAR placement within a ROTOR set is not important. To start ROTOR 1, the PILOT places the GEAR in the GEAR slot at the top of the STEAM TANK, opposite the stack light for ROTOR 1.

Steve
I've been having this argument since day 1, and I can't resolve it because I don't have a Q&A account this year. There's no penalty listed for placing gears out of order, even out of Rotor order. It just says rotors only start in rotor order. There's 2 ways this could be programmed:
1. Rotor X+1 won't start and won't accumulate rotations until Rotor X is started.
2. Rotor X+1 will NEVER start or accumulate rotations if it EVER sees a rotation before Rotor X starts.

#1 is straightforward programming in any language you care to use.
#2 is a literal interpretation of your quoted text, but requires more complicated programming to implement. You have to intentionally latch a fault condition and intend to lock out all further rotor scoring if there's an out of order rotation. Silently, apparently, since there's no mention of any warning displayed for teams or pilots if they shoot themselves in the foot like this.

So, obviously, I think it's incredibly unlikely that the system works as in #2. I think the rotor scoring logic is just inartfully stated in the manual, which is a thing that happens every year. But I can't FIX this because I can't post a Q to determine exactly what the GDC means. It'd be simple:

"Can you place gears out of rotor order? Eg. place 2 gears in Rotor 2, then place gear in Rotor 1, then turn gears in Rotor 2. Does this result in 2 started Rotors?"
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