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Unread 03-02-2017, 16:03
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
I'm missing something here - isn't this something everyone has to worry about?
Yes, but if you wait to stop your winch until AFTER the light comes on you will be putting the full power of your winch + the weight of your robot pulling on the rope for that second.

That's probably a decent amount of force (at least 300 lbs)
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Unread 03-02-2017, 16:04
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Yes, but if you wait to stop your winch until AFTER the light comes on you will be putting the full power of your winch + the weight of your robot pulling on the rope for that second.

That's probably a decent amount of force (at least 300 lbs)
Hence the need for sensors.
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Unread 03-02-2017, 17:36
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Yes, but if you wait to stop your winch until AFTER the light comes on you will be putting the full power of your winch + the weight of your robot pulling on the rope for that second.

That's probably a decent amount of force (at least 300 lbs)
Just FYI, I agree with your point that teams need to have a solution to the problem.

However, in this circumstance, the force applied on the rope after hitting the stop at the top isn't "the full power of the winch + the weight of the robot pulling on the rope..."

Rather, it's the maximum of the two. (Which is likely to be the "at stall" torque from the winch.)
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Unread 03-02-2017, 21:30
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

We're using a flex-head ratcheting wrench, i.e. just an ordinary ratcheting wrench except there's a pivot between the head and the handle. In order to lower the robot, we simply undo the velcro strap holding the wrench handle in a constrained position (i.e. between two bolts) and pivot it out of the way. The wrench rotates with the winch as it unspools.
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Unread 03-02-2017, 21:44
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
We're using a flex-head ratcheting wrench, i.e. just an ordinary ratcheting wrench except there's a pivot between the head and the handle. In order to lower the robot, we simply undo the velcro strap holding the wrench handle in a constrained position (i.e. between two bolts) and pivot it out of the way. The wrench rotates with the winch as it unspools.
Wow. I was at Lowe's shopping for ratchet wrenches this evening, and thought of essentially the same thing when I looked at the flex-head wrenges. I was thinking of using a non-flex head, non-reversible wrench, wedging it in a piece of aluminum channel (similar to your two bolts), and lifting it out parallel to the shaft. If you do this, be sure to mark the ratchet wrench as to WHICH SIDE FACES OUT, or you'll have a useless climber for a match or three.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 View Post
I've been mulling over whether or not it's legal cut the rope to release the robot. ...
I concur that with the rules as currently written, it would not be legal (Drive team damage vs robot damage). However, given the preamble to the answer to Q299, I suspect that a question on this topic would get a finding of legal even if it meant a rule change.
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Last edited by GeeTwo : 03-02-2017 at 21:52.
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Unread 03-02-2017, 21:50
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by GeeTwo View Post
Wow. I was at Lowe's shopping for ratchet wrenches this evening, and thought of essentially the same thing when I looked at the flex-head wrenges. I was thinking of using a non-flex head, non-reversible wrench, wedging it in a piece of aluminum channel (similar to your two bolts), and lifting it out parallel to the shaft. If you do this, be sure to mark the ratchet wrench as to WHICH SIDE FACES OUT, or you'll have a useless climber for a match or three.
The nice thing about the flex-head wrench is that we can constrain the head in-place to avoid that exact problem (though we probably ought to mark it anyway).

For those who are interested, this is the wrench in question:

https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-WRN570...words=WRN57010
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Unread 03-02-2017, 22:02
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by GeeTwo View Post
Wow. I was at Lowe's shopping for ratchet wrenches this evening, and thought of essentially the same thing when I looked at the flex-head wrenges. I was thinking of using a non-flex head, non-reversible wrench, wedging it in a piece of aluminum channel (similar to your two bolts), and lifting it out parallel to the shaft. If you do this, be sure to mark the ratchet wrench as to WHICH SIDE FACES OUT, or you'll have a useless climber for a match or three.
From my experience, that is much easier said than done (with the non-flexible non-reversing). The wrench always wedged itself pretty tightly against the stop and we still needed to lift or rotate the robot slightly to get it out. There needs to be pretty much no load on the wrench to be able to slide it along the shaft to get it off (or far enough along the shaft to not be impeded). Granted, I've always done it using two bolts/screws as the stop, never channel.

I'll second the comment about marking which side of the wrench needs to be facing out, or which way the switch needs to be flipped if you're using a reversible wrench. Drill it into your pit crew's and drive team's heads. You can never double-check too many times.
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Unread 03-02-2017, 22:02
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
We're using a flex-head ratcheting wrench, i.e. just an ordinary ratcheting wrench except there's a pivot between the head and the handle. In order to lower the robot, we simply undo the velcro strap holding the wrench handle in a constrained position (i.e. between two bolts) and pivot it out of the way. The wrench rotates with the winch as it unspools.
Have you tried this after crashing into the top and holding full stall?


Depending on where it is in the gear reduction and the spool diameter it'll either be completely locked and tough to remove or trivial to remove by hand.
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Unread 03-02-2017, 22:07
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
Have you tried this after crashing into the top and holding full stall?


Depending on where it is in the gear reduction and the spool diameter it'll either be completely locked and tough to remove or trivial to remove by hand.
The wrench is right on the spool shaft, and the spool diameter is 1.25''. It's got a nice long handle, and I seriously doubt it will be a problem though we have not tried "wedging" the robot like that yet (we will be current-limiting the climbing motor to prevent that, at any rate).
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Unread 03-02-2017, 22:48
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by Oblarg View Post
The wrench is right on the spool shaft, and the spool diameter is 1.25''. It's got a nice long handle, and I seriously doubt it will be a problem though we have not tried "wedging" the robot like that yet (we will be current-limiting the climbing motor to prevent that, at any rate).
Might as well test "catastrophic failure mode" while you get a chance to do so in a more friendly environment.
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Unread 03-02-2017, 23:31
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

After reading all this, maybe it would just be better to climb early and let the robot backdrive as time expires... This seems tricky otherwise.
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Unread 04-02-2017, 03:39
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

Hmm... I wonder if you could build a slip knot into the Retaining Feature of the rope. It holds under tension, but after a match, make sure the robot is supported and release an inch or two of slack. It'd be all in the rope, so even the teams that show up without the slightest consideration of this issue can implement a solution.
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Unread 04-02-2017, 08:48
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

a prudent approach:

Decouple the winch and the sensor trigger system. Winch system needs to be powerful, sensor trigger system does not.

1. Stop the climb well short of the sensor disk. Do this via encoder or careful operator control.
a ratcheting device, such as a wrench, ensures that when power is killed the climber drum doesn't unwind. Robot is now hanging a few inches below sensor.

2. Activate a low power device (pneumatic piston or a cam on a small motor with its own ratchet) that extends up and holds pressure on the sensor disk through the end of match. Or do it passively with a compression spring.

3. After match lift robot up. As long as the trigger device on robot is low power two people should be able to overcome it easily and thus easily take tension off the winch ratchet system.

This type of solution has likely been covered in another thread but it seems worthwhile to emphasize in this thread that triggering the sensor with your winch system, and the trouble that can ensue, is unnecessary.

The forces involved that can damage the field, your robot, and possibly you, are of such magnitude that added complexity in the form of the additional trigger subsystem would likely pass the cost/benefit test.
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Unread 05-02-2017, 23:04
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

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Originally Posted by James3245 View Post
2. Activate a low power device (pneumatic piston or a cam on a small motor with its own ratchet) that extends up and holds pressure on the sensor disk through the end of match. Or do it passively with a compression spring.
Depending on the geometry, this is likely to run afoul of the perimeter rules. You'd need to be hanging at an angle such that this extension doesn't reach past the bumpers. (Or have a smaller-than-maximum-size robot.)
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Unread 05-02-2017, 18:21
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Re: Climb Stopping Mechanism

Based on tests today of our first iteration climber, it seems reasonable to (a) get the climb scored but not stall into the touchpad, (b) relieve the load on a switchable ratcheting wrench by lifting the robot further into the touchpad thereby allowing you to switch the ratchet, (c) remove the rope from the field thereby releasing the robot, and (d) remove the rope from the robot in the pit. Our tests proved that this is difficult but feasible with a manual climb, but would be much more repeatable and faster with an automatic climb. The key is to not finish your climb with full power. I would warn folks that with the high reductions many climbing gearboxes have, it could be difficult to remove rope by backdriving the winches by hand.
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