|
|
|
![]() |
|
|||||||
|
||||||||
![]() |
| Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
|
Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
First off, i know that anonymous accounts are frowned upon, so apologies for that, but I am looking to get some brutally honest feedback without my team knowing who this necessarily is. Anyways... I wrote a rant about some of the most recent pitfalls of our team, and was advised not to post it. But, I still have a few questions for the FRC community.
Long-rant short, our team probably will not exist next year, for a couple reasons:
Anyways, I have a couple of questions for the CD community:
If you would prefer to reply in a more "anonymous" fashion, feel free at: https://goo.gl/forms/ksZbCXXo1NEj6Cbh1 Thank you for your honest feedback. |
|
#2
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
Do you have seniors who do a lot of the work on the team? Yes. And so do freshman, sophmores, and junior students. Do your mentors do a large chunk of the robot work? Yes. And so do the students. And so do our suppliers, and so do parents. How involved are the majority of students on your team? Do they do a lot of the work, or do mentors? As involved as they want to be. Do your students learn more by themselves or more from other students and mentors? Yes. They do. Depending on how motivated they are and how involved they want to be. The long and the short of this is, running a successful FRC team takes so much work that NO team has enough hands to do it all. With our 40+ members and 15+ mentors this year, we still wish for more help all the time. Regardless of how many mentors and how many students work on the robot, it is never done early enough. We are still working on it through Champs, and sometimes through IRI. I somewhat get the impression that you are using your own level of commitment as an expectation for your fellow students and mentors. That doesn't work in practice because everyone is different. Why would your team cease to exist? I struggle to put my finger on a reason from your initial post. In addition, I think you need to re-evaluate your questions. Generally speaking if you're doing research you want to stay away from leading questions. Last edited by Tom Line : 06-02-2017 at 21:39. |
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
From my experience, teams will have ups and downs depending mostly on the competence of students and the amount of them. This is okay, but obviously not ideal, if you stay down for too long you will loose support from your school, sponsors, and community. To answer your questions: -The seniors and mentors doing the majority of the work depends on the year. -Some students attend every meeting and others don't, they have commitments and the most involved students put in extra hours to make sure we finish on time. -Student learning depends on the student. Some people learn really well by prototyping on their own and others need more guidance. Don't give your students the answer but give them a push in the right direction when they need it. Here's my suggestion: Do what you need to do to finish the build season on time. Give the students choices to guide them in the right direction but let them choose what they will enjoy the most. Keep the students that you have now. Don't give up on this season for recruiting new students. Demo your robot(s) around your school or community to generate interest. Don't be afraid to take some new students to the competition so they can see what FRC is all about. Attend offseason events and bring new members. Continue meeting in the offseason and find fun and interesting projects to build skills and community. Good Luck! |
|
#4
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
+1 I will have to agree with Tom. I've been on both sides of the spectrum from the lowest point to the highest, both as a student and mentor. I've seen what hard work and dedication from both sides gets you to. I think instead of asking those questions you should be brainstorming ways of approaching both students, mentors, teachers, etc; whomever you have to on ways to fix the problem. Sit down with a group of your peers at a time asking why they are there, what they want to do. Engage them and try to find teachers within the school district who want to be there. That is all I have. Best of luck and hate to see a team thinking about disbanding over something trivial. Feel free to pm me maybe my team is nearby to yours and can help.
Quote:
|
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Keeping students as engaged and committed as the FIRST season demands is major problem for the majority of teams. There's no shame in admitting that. I'll admit my team is plagued by this problem too.
In my opinion, what keeps a team together is the complex social-structure that good teams develop. This is the "team" in "team-building." Ultimately, student push themselves to achieve, less because of the learning and experience benefit to themselves, and more because of the social gratification they will receive. If there is not a strong system of social rewards for ambition and commitment, that could be the key to success. At it's core, our team is really just a few inter-locking friend circles that have been built around robotics. There are many ways of creating this social foundation, but a simple way is to put your team through duress and make them find a way out. If only a few people do not give up it will be a good team-building exercise. I caution against internet team-building activities -- they're ineffective and a waste of everyone's time. |
|
#6
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
A well designed team building activity, game night, or other fun activity can solidify a team. |
|
#7
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
1. We actually only have one senior on our team this year, and he helps when he can. Our team has 2 freshman, 3 sophomores, 4 juniors (2 returning), and the single senior (returning). He is very interested in the robot and how it works, but he usually stays to himself. 2. The mentors on our team usually only do things that the students don't know how to do yet and teach the students along the way so they don't have to ask again. They do it for themselves after they learn. 3. Refer to 1 and 2. Our students are involved until they don't know how to do something. 4. I rarely have seen a student learn by themselves unless it was through research they have done. Our college mentor was one of the only kids that came through our program that ALMOST learned how to program by himself, and it was through LabView. He did a lot of trial and error, and in turn is trying to teach the current students how to code the 2017 robot now. I will say that our group lacks drive and determination that some other teams do. But only because we rarely see funding to get to District Champs. Our students love what they are doing, but fail to see the bigger picture sometimes. |
|
#8
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
|
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Honestly, this is something I struggle with. On one hand, I have a handful of students that put in effort. More effort than they should really. This is also an inordinately expensive program. So weighing those two facts against the 80% of the team that does nothing leaves me with two choices. Waste a ton of money and show those students that work that their work is meaningless OR push and end up doing more work.
Ultimately, I guess it's up to the mentor but I feel like I have a responsibility to ensure the success of the team. I honestly don't care if I have more medals and banners, and I've had seasons where I think I scored 1 point all season across 2 events. But to me, if I've got a single student putting in effort I'm going to be there next to them doing anything. I can to make sure it's as successful as I can me. You want some brutally honest feedback - There's no right answer, If you, as a student don't want the mentors stepping up show them you guys can. I don't know what your question really is but ultimately I'll tell you what I told my students earlier this season - We're all there because we want to show you guys that STEM is cool, I can (and do) build a lot of stuff in my spare time and I do it a lot cheaper and a lot faster than I can with a bunch of high school students. I CAN do this on my own. If you want to learn, ask and we'll teach you. You're gonna get out what you put into this program. |
|
#10
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
No team is perfect, but it seems to me that you are not happy with the current direction and want to see your team grow.
My suggestions are to meet individually with the mentors and learn what motivates them. Then do the same with the team leadership and a random assortment of the rest of the team, making sure to include students from age (or grade). My guess is that you will find mentors excited by the technical challenge, being respected and listened to as well as being part of a successful team. For the students its a chance to learn and grow, try out their ideas, enjoy socializing with people interested in robotics and physical nature of building something. Having a stake in the outcome is another strong motivator. No one likes to be told, just do this without understanding the why. Who does what in my mind is not important, so long as everyone gets a chance to influence the design. And yes in the rush to get something built, students that show up infrequently or late may not get to see the big picture. If you want that, then one has to be committed and willing to put in the time. As a mentor, I feel my responsibilities are: 1. Safety (use protective gear, use the tools correctly, no playing with the tools or materials) 2. Protect the school, room and tools and without wasting material. This included bumpers on the robot so the walls don't get damaged. Using a vice or scrap lumber so holes are not drilled into tables. Drill at the correct speed to avoid dulling bits. Laying out a design on a side vs in the center of a board, to minimize scrap. 3. Teach. Proper tool use, design, strategy, the need to think thru a design instead of just cutting and building. 4. Have fun I work best when students show up on time to meetings, share their ideas, willing to draw up their ideas and then discuss ways of building. Students that show up late, for a small part of the build meeting, spend most of their time socializing, manage to leave before its time to clean up, tend to disrupt the work flow and result in more mentor effort. Like a sports team, the competition starts with team preparation. First learn how to draw and build. Buy parts early. Do some practice design and build activities. If your students can do that in the fall, I think your team will enjoy the competition more and the mentors go into cruse mode. Every team is different, but FIRST is about students working with engineers. How you draw the line of who does what is based on your coach and how they want to run the team. If you can get the team trained up in the fall and implement rational design decisions where everyone can contribute, its shouldn't matter as much who does what, since there is plenty to do during a build. To your question, "Do your students learn more by themselves or more from other students and mentors?" I have found that when teaching specific skills like filling or hack sawing, one student who thinks they are doing it right will pass on their bad habits. Its like the communication train. I tell one student something, they pass it on to the next student and before long the message has changed. So if you want to share a specific skill, a highly skilled mentor is the way to go. But students will pay more attention to their peers and end up being more interested in that task. So the answer is it depends on the task and how skilled is the student. Dave Build Mentor |
|
#11
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
>Do you have seniors who do a lot of the work on the team?
Yes, seniors make up the bulk of the knowledge and work on our team. This isn't necessarily seniors, it's just that the class of 2017 was extraordinarily large and talented. Our Freshmen-Juniors are competent enough to survive without the senior class, however. One of the greatest responsibilities seniors have is ensuring those beneath them have enough knowledge to continue improving the team in later years. The optimal situation is one in which seniors take a hands-off approach and are able to act as advisers. >Do your mentors do a large chunk of the robot work? No. They do 0% of the robot work and would rather let the team fail than have to step in. They provide suggestions but at the end of the day it's up to the students. >How involved are the majority of students on your team? Do they do a lot of the work, or do mentors? We technically have "40" students but I find that many of them could not accomplish much of anything if the rest of the team was not there to help them. There are many people who view FRC as a "social club" rather than an engineering team. It's the unfortunate case that in some years the team is a small group of core students surrounded by people who are not as engaged in learning. And as stated before, our mentors are not hands-on. >Do your students learn more by themselves or more from other students and mentors? Students learn from other students. We hold training sessions at the beginning of the year to teach the basics. As the season begins, freshman assist seniors/juniors and gradually pick up on skills. By the end of the season, our freshman are usually pretty competent. (At least the committed ones) As to your specific situation, I think the problem is definitely mentor involvement. I can't fathom a team environment in which students sit on their butt while teachers are building their robot... If I were you, I would strongly suggest that your mentors take a hands-off approach and let you do the work. However, if the mentors do all the work and haven't been properly teaching you, it may be the case that your team quite literally doesn't have the skills necessary to build a robot without mentor involvement. If that is the case, then a more gradual roll-back of mentor involvement would be necessary. Rather then having them actually building the bot, have them tell you what to do. Learn from it, and then refine upon that knowledge in the off season. The students should be able to build a robot by themselves. If they can't, then they haven't learned enough. |
|
#12
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
In regards to your entire situation, I think talking about these matters with your mentors and your dedicated students may be the best course of action. If your mentors are already contributing their time and energy (and probably money) to this program, telling them that there are still students that care and have a desire to learn and be successful may be the best way to remotivate them. There's a good chance your mentors have a nagging voice in the back of their heads asking if what they're doing is the best way to benefit the students, the best use of their resources and time, or if it's just worth the effort. Maybe all they need is some affirmation that Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology is happening, and that there are students willing to put in the work to make more Inspiration and Recognition happen. Course, this also means your fellow students will have to step up; I don't know which has to happen first. But the mentors have to be present, have to be engaged, and have to set the attitude and environment for the team. And the students have to be willing to learn, willing to work, and willing to have fun. Good luck! Remember, if these thoughts have occurred to you, it's very possible that they've occurred to others on your team. Reach out to them. FIRST happens in the team meetings and the late nights and the irksome tasks and the fierce competitions. But all of those experiences happen with your team. |
|
#13
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
I will not presume the details of your situation but I feel your frustration and will simply tell you my journey. I have been in this same place before. The moment that changed my direction was when I realized that I donate a vast amount of time and emotion to my students, not the other way around. That allowed me to let go and have them own it. Since then they have never failed to impress me. If they own it, leadership will percolate out of the group. If I owned it I risked "being angry with the minions". You will be disappointed if you try to fix where you are...just measure your base and grow from there.
So here's what I did: 1. Asked the team what they want to accomplish that year. The first time I did that the reply was "we want our robot to move in every match". It did and they were all winners. The following year they wanted to be above midpoint in qualification...and kinda were, but still felt like winners...etc. The moral of the story is if you coach and mentor them to their goals, with a measure of stretch, they will own their own success and grow. Today the team I'm with decided they want to be in eliminations at World Champs...an probably will. 2. Ownership is huge for me...so we created an acronym to communicate the ownership to the whole organization. M.E.N.T.O.R. = Motivate and Educate, but No Touching Our Robot. Now, I understand this was not introduced well in the past, so let me clarify...It does not mean I don't touch the robot, or influence design, it means I can only do so if I ask permission or am invited to do so by the students. This conveys true ownership. It also gives me the opportunity to say, if asked "no, you need to solve that problem...here's some ideas..." This works great for us and our mentor community, and I want to believe it has created a functional relationship between Students and Mentors. 3. M.E.N.T.O.R. is also a great way to immediately re-engage alumni who want stay active, by pointing out they have crossed the boundary they are already familiar with. We use alumni quite a bit, because they not only have the most current skills and insight, they are comrades and friends...they are the ones the current students want to be...I'm just the old guy in the room. My growth and rewards came after I stopped fighting the details and focused on infrastructure and team growth...trust in the students, communicate that trust, and they will do the rest. P.S. - I was told, and believe, that FRC is designed to mimic the real world - "No enough time, not enough money and not enough resources to do everything you want, so just do your best". Last edited by iyportne : 07-02-2017 at 10:00. |
|
#14
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
I can share the process I've seen on the team I work with. I can share ideally what I'd like to see. I can share what I've seen interacting with other teams. But, that would be three different explanations. And honestly, I think seeing that distinction provides you more value than knowing the specifics. Each team is different. Each student is different. Each mentor is different. Each culture is different. In your time with the team, have you ALWAYS been the hardest working member (including now)? If not, how would you feel if the member(s) working harder views you as not committed? If your mentors are doing work on the robot and coming to spend their free time with you, isn't it a little unfair to claim their heart isn't in it? From a broad stroke, mentors that are putting effort into your robot are mentors that want to see you succeed. I don't really agree with them doing the work themselves, but I understand where they're coming from. It's very difficult to know the answer to a question a student asks and not give it to them. But, I don't want to build a robot. I want to help provide an experience for the students on my team. I use a technique similar to your survey. I'll ask leading questions to help them on their path to finding a solution that works. Often, it's not the solution I originally imagined and that's amazing. The most honest thing I can offer you is this: until you're honest with yourself, you won't be able to make progress. It's unlikely you, and your attitude, aren't a part of the problem. If I look at the short version of the rant, here's what I hear: "Only a few people work on the robot. The rest don't care. The mentors don't care enough to make us care. It's all their fault." What are you doing to engage those that show up to the meetings and keep them interested? How are you bringing them into what you are doing? Are you showing them how you write an algorithm? Are you asking for their input or just telling them? Are they late because they just don't care or because they have a very busy schedule to which FRC is only a part of? You need to be a tad more fair with your colleagues and honest with yourself. Avoid placing blame and coming into the conversation with that approach. |
|
#15
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
Re: Looking for some brutally honest feedback...
Quote:
1. Yes 2. Partly. We try to avoid it. 3. Hardly, they seem to be there for the college app benefit and little else. Oh and it seems a nice social club. 4. Those that work do learn from mentors, but some have good knowledge and skill already. These answers don't necessarily represent Team 832; I work with several teams. |
![]() |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|