What do you feel about the growth of FIRST?

[Koko Ed]

Originally posted by D.J. Fluck
I think FIRST is growing too much, too fast. They need to slow down a bit and work on saving teams that are currently involved. Each year teams drop out due to funding or other issues, and if FIRST took a few years to focus on saving what they have FIRST will truely grow. Right now FIRST has a positive growth rate with more teams coming in than dropping out. This could easily change and not for the better.....

When I think about teams like 340 Grr robotics or 144 Who and Team 64 the Gila Monsters possibly falling out of the FIRST scene that is a great loss to the FIRST community. I'm hoping that if another company in the Rochester area steps in to start a FIRST team and if Nortel has truly dropped Grr Robotics that they'll take a good look at an already established team first with a solid base in FIRST before starting another team fresh. I hope the same can be done in the Cincinatti area for Who and in Arizona for the Gila Monsters. These are the teams that help make FIRST great and they should be maintained.
Progress should never made at the expense of the past

[marlon_jbt]

When I first joined Team 519, in September of '02 I didn't have the slightest idea of what was going on. Thank goodness for off-season competitions. This is not my point though.

When I saw the competition, I noticed that there were team uniforms, and sponsors galore. I didn't think much of it though. As I walked around the competition, I noticed how nice teams were to others, and I was amazed. Then, when they were announcing the team names... is when I was trying to listen to the team names, but I was overwhelmed with SPONSORS. I could barely hear the team number at all either.

What am I trying to say?

I think FIRST is about corporate exploitation. Why should our sponsors be put first? I understand that they give us thousands of dollars to fund us, but this is just too much. The major engineering companies know what this is about, and they like the publicity of their name being around a FIRST Robotics Competition.

FIRST needs to change their image, FAST and it needs to be a complete transformation. If they want to grow at all, they need to focus more about the benefits, and NOT about the traveling and the pizza (Although Yummy)

Now, at the remote kickoff, it wasn't as bad as I thought. I didn't see these hideous banners hanging everywhere.

Also, something that hasn't been mentioned yet... Dean Kamen is a nice guy. He desperately wants FIRST to grow, but I don't think he knows that he IS the inspiration for many people on FIRST teams. All FIRST staff, including Dean himself, should be there for students when they need it. I am aware that FIRST has grown to amazing proportions, so they say that they cannot do this anymore, but I think they could. If FIRST wants to grow, they need to reach out to MORE of an area, than New England. I understand that's where FIRST was born, but what about the rest of the country, and the world for that matter?

[Joe Matt]

I argue against any form of droppoing teams that don't work or being picky about who goes to a regional based on an entertainment value. FIRST isn't about entertainment. It never was and never should be. The focus should be on the students and teaching them. Getting FIRST on TV and creating a Battlebots type battle system would ruin FIRST. FIRST dosn't sway on the flows of what 'Joe Blow' wants to watch on TV on Saturday afternoon, but teaching kids.

I'd rather have a smaller FIRST that keeps it values than have more teams and water down the message.

[rees2001]

If FIRST wants to find a way to improve as they expand, they need to find a way to keep & help the better teams. Last year there was a “FIRST STAR” rating that ranked teams based on past average performance over the previous 4 years. To improve the quality of Nationals FIRST could use a system similar to this ranking. From what I have seen good teams continue to be good. This is not to say that below average teams cannot make vast improvements. If FIRST used the ranking for qualifications & then allowed current year Regional winners, the quality of robots at Nats would be awesome.

Originally posted by Koko Ed
When I think about teams like 340 Grr robotics or 144 Who and Team 64 the Gila Monsters possibly falling out of the FIRST scene that is a great loss to the FIRST community. I'm hoping that if another company in the Rochester area steps in to start a FIRST team and if Nortel has truly dropped Grr Robotics that they'll take a good look at an already established team first with a solid base in FIRST before starting another team fresh. I hope the same can be done in the Cincinatti area for Who and in Arizona for the Gila Monsters. These are the teams that help make FIRST great and they should be maintained.
Progress should never made at the expense of the past

As for teams finding money to continue, we will find a way to continue & hopefully so will the others in our position. When we finally realized the situation our team is in we set out with a better plan. Granted we still have not found a new sponsor yet but we have found a way to become a more organized and a more determined group of people. Rather than look to the obvious, our former sponsor, we looked within(we have not received any funds from Nortel since December 2001). We have a core group of mentors from, J&J, Kodak, Nortel, Pactive, Delphi, Valeo, Pfaudler, and, Manning, Hennig & Squires, not mention other mentors from other companies. If we can find a way to get people from all of these companies to find the value in the FIRST program we can find a way to get sponsorship. There is money out there we just have to be more active about finding it.

[Koko Ed]

Originally posted by rees2001
If FIRST wants to find a way to improve as they expand, they need to find a way to keep & help the better teams. Last year there was a “FIRST STAR” rating that ranked teams based on past average performance over the previous 4 years. To improve the quality of Nationals FIRST could use a system similar to this ranking. From what I have seen good teams continue to be good. This is not to say that below average teams cannot make vast improvements. If FIRST used the ranking for qualifications & then allowed current year Regional winners, the quality of robots at Nats would be awesome.




As for teams finding money to continue, we will find a way to continue & hopefully so will the others in our position. When we finally realized the situation our team is in we set out with a better plan. Granted we still have not found a new sponsor yet but we have found a way to become a more organized and a more determined group of people. Rather than look to the obvious, our former sponsor, we looked within(we have not received any funds from Nortel since December 2001). We have a core group of mentors from, J&J, Kodak, Nortel, Pactive, Delphi, Valeo, Pfaudler, and, Manning, Hennig & Squires, not mention other mentors from other companies. If we can find a way to get people from all of these companies to find the value in the FIRST program we can find a way to get sponsorship. There is money out there we just have to be more active about finding it.

Amazingly Delphi has not started a team in Rochester yet and they have a plant here.

[marlon_jbt]

Originally posted by Koko Ed
Amazingly Delphi has not started a team in Rochester yet and they have a plant here.

I have never thought about that, and yes, that is strange.

However, what else I always thought was strange, is the amount of money given to the Delphi teams...

Whoa is about all that can be said about it.

I do not believe in keeping the best teams around, because then you have to wonder... what will happen to the smaller teams, that are not ranked as well? Will they just all die? If that was to happen, FIRST would probably have just those well known teams. Yes, there would be much competition, but it would be unfair. Life is unfair, I know, but you have to have those instances where everyone can be treated fairly.

Now, I'm all for the "FIRST STAR". It should be used to send teams to the Championship Event. The little qualification process seems a bit antiquated, if you ask me. FIRST will continue to grow, nothing will stop it, unless governments stop printing money.

[Koko Ed]

Originally posted by marlon_jbt
I have never thought about that, and yes, that is strange.

However, what else I always thought was strange, is the amount of money given to the Delphi teams...

Whoa is about all that can be said about it.

I do not believe in keeping the best teams around, because then you have to wonder... what will happen to the smaller teams, that are not ranked as well? Will they just all die? If that was to happen, FIRST would probably have just those well known teams. Yes, there would be much competition, but it would be unfair. Life is unfair, I know, but you have to have those instances where everyone can be treated fairly.

Now, I'm all for the "FIRST STAR". It should be used to send teams to the Championship Event. The little qualification process seems a bit antiquated, if you ask me. FIRST will continue to grow, nothing will stop it, unless governments stop printing money.

But I'm not looking at those teams from the aspect of how many awards have they won. That's not what FIRST is all about. I'm looking at them as citizens of FIRST. All rookie teams could learn alot from the three teams I have mentioned and if those teams fade away then that is lost. Tradition has it's place.

[rees2001]

I was never trying to say that the lower ranked teams should be eliminated. My thoughts on FIRST STAR were just for the Championship. If the teams that do not qualify use the money spent to go to another regional, that may improve their ranking.

As for allowing the better teams to fade away, that would be counter productive for FIRST. It is the better teams that raise the bar for everyone.

Another thing that may improve the quality of the robots and the competition is to add another week to the build season. Of course it may just end up being another week to put off finishing the robot.

[marlon_jbt]

Sorry about the misunderstanding, but yeah, I DO AGREE with using the "FIRST STAR" program for qualification for the Championship. This "points system" isn't unfair, but it just doesn't seem right to have something going like that.

Another week to add to the build period would be perfect. 6 Weeks is JUST ENOUGH, but not enough time to make something spectacular.

I'm actually quite angry at the way our robot was built. We barely got any time to build it. We had one engineer, and he built the robot. As a matter of fact, HE RAN THE ENTIRE TEAM. If anything, FIRST needs to set mandates for teams, telling them what the mentors/engineers/adult leaders are in charge of doing, and if teams do not meet requirements... they get penalized for their actions. That could be a part of the FIRST STAR system.

[gsensel]

There should be growth of new teams, but the established teams NEED to stay around and also help the new people.

Originally posted by marlon_jbt
If anything, FIRST needs to set mandates for teams, telling them what the mentors/engineers/adult leaders are in charge of doing, and if teams do not meet requirements... they get penalized for their actions. That could be a part of the FIRST STAR system.

There is no possible way that could happen.

A. How would this be enforced?

&

B. You would be limiting on what your mentors could do. How are they supposed to Inspire you if a rule is made saying that all they can do is babysit and clean up blood?

[Madison]

Originally posted by marlon_jbt
I'm actually quite angry at the way our robot was built. We barely got any time to build it. We had one engineer, and he built the robot. As a matter of fact, HE RAN THE ENTIRE TEAM. If anything, FIRST needs to set mandates for teams, telling them what the mentors/engineers/adult leaders are in charge of doing, and if teams do not meet requirements... they get penalized for their actions. That could be a part of the FIRST STAR system.

I'll quickly close pandora's box, here, and point out that this debate is tired, old, repetitive and yields no appreciable results. Do a search and you'll see how others have fared.

With that said, I'll weigh in a bit about FIRST's growth some. I've meant to reply to this for a little while now.

I want, sincerely, for the goals and successes of FIRST to reach every corner of the globe. I want that growth to happen so that everyone, everywhere can grow a bit more themselves - by engaging in new experiences, by meeting new people, and by learning new things from both those experiences and those people.

But, since the interpersonal relationships have become so important to me, I have come to fear FIRST's rapid, relentless expansion.

Already, in the 5 years I've been involved in FIRST, I've seen the level of contact between teams and the FIRST staff decrease immensely. There was a time when I knew each and every team, their school, their number, their sponsors...everything. I can't hope to keep track of that anymore. There are so many new teams out there now that I know nothing about.

Let's face it, it's much, much harder to care about a stranger than it is to care about someone we know. It's harder for me to care for these teams and cheer them on and urge them success and help them when I don't really know them. FIRST has become very impersonal, and right at time when I'd matured enough to really want and need it to be personable and amiable and social.

I guess, really, I'm frustrated that the increasing size of FIRST translates to more opportunities to miss out on great people. That's probably a bit backwards, but, I'm usually a bit backwards, so. Of course, it goes without saying that this growth does bring our experience to many, many more people, and that's absolutely a positive, good thing. It's been a long time since my needs have been central to this program. But, still, FIRST needs to hire some more people and the rest of us need to make an extra effort at welcoming the thousands of new participants to FIRST, otherwise, the things we treasure so much about all of this may disappear.

Beyond that, my other biggest fear regarding the new FIRST is that it will lose focus of its main objectives. The pervasive desire to make FIRST media friendly terrifies me. I hope that in our drive to attract new participants, we don't make too many concessions. I fear that the power of money will corrupt FIRST, I guess.

I guess, in some ways, that's odd. FIRST's biggest fear, I'd suspect, is whether or not they'll have enough money to sustain the program. My biggest fear is that if they find that money, it'll come with strings attached.

FIRST is unique. It's pure, almost, in a sense, since maintains some amazingly noble, forward-thinking ideas about providing people with the opportunity to realize their potential, helping them to get up when they fall, and showing everyone the value of being a good person.

There are no rewards for participating in FIRST except for the personal satisfaction we each feel when we help to make a better person of ourselves and of someone else. That is the most personal thing that FIRST can do for any of us, and so long as that's not lost; for as long as trophies aren't valued, for as long as a win isn't required to secure sponsorship, and for as long as we can still form friendships and alliances with talented, interested, amazing people, FIRST is going to be okay.

At least, where I'm concerned. ...and, um, sorry for this making little to no sense. That's what happens when I write from a stream of consciousness.

[rees2001]

I guess at this point in this thread we have to ask ourselves what does FIRST really mean to me. Then we have to question what FIRST means to our schools, our mentors, our teachers, and our communities. Finally we have to ask what does FIRST mean to our sponsors.
FIRST is going to grow, there is nothing we can do about that. At this point, it is entirely up to us to help mold it into what we want it to be. If we start now and work with the people running FIRST, we can get it there.

I will let you think about all of those before I continue my thought.

[Ken Leung]

Thanks for everyone's reply. There's a lot of great thoughts about this program, and problems it face, and potential solutions to to making it easier for this program to survive.

Let's focus on the topic a little bit. I know there are other topics like frustration about how teams are run and qualification for Championship event, but those can be left for another thread.

Couple of things I want to touch upon, and get people to think about: public awareness of this program, the existing School system and how it can support teams, and the nature of FIRST as an organization. I believe it will benefit the discussion if everyone focuses their thoughts in these topics first.


Public awareness:

Like M said, the reward of doing FIRST is the personal satisfaction the participants get every time they build a robot and complete the season. Every time the program made a positive difference in the participants' lives, it's done its job right. The problem is, only those participants got the full reward from the program. The public aren't aware of how much benefit this program is until they have been to a competition, or work with a team.

Really, how do you convince the average person that FIRST is really cool until you expose them to the competition? How do you educate the public about this program and its impact? How do you make lots and lots of people see this so the demand for this program is greater (and thus increasing the support to the teams)?

Surely the media is a really important tool to spread the message, which is about the #1 mechanism out there to pass messages to a large group of people. The school system is another resource too, because a lot of parents have confidence in the schools to educate their kids.

The reason public awareness is so important is kind of like politics. When you show some government representatives that the people want something really badly, and are willing to vote them out if their demand aren't met, then those representatives will be forced to think twice before ignoring those demands. In a similar sense, if the school understands that there is a public demand for that school to have a robotics team, they will think twice about setting the school budget. Just think, if the PTA board is filled with energetic parents who really understand the impact of FIRST, they are more likely to ask the school to do something about it.

That's just the local level of public awareness. In a state wide scale, if the school districts are showing a demand for robotics teams in their high school, it is more likely that the state will do something about it. Again, people = power, when you have lots and lots of people behind the cause.


The question about existing school system supporting FIRST teams:

I totally agree that schools should support teams themselves, and rely less on corporations out there hanging dry by the economy. There are funding in school right now, you can see them at the sport teams and music department. The problem is how to get the school to support the cause. This is where public awareness comes in. With the community is behind the team, it is more likely that the school will help out. When more and more schools are showing their support in the program, and the teams are showing positive results in the students to the school and the district, then it is more likely that more schools will help the teams out.

Once you got the school backing you up, it is much easier for teams to survive. The sheer number of school means a potential of 1 team in every city in the future. We just got to some how get the system to incorporate this new program into themselves.


And finally, before I let everyone go and have some time to think, I want to talk about the FIRST organization itself.

At the current status, they are a non-profit organization, and therefore are extremely limited in money and resources. Everything is tight on budget for them. As more and more teams join the program, the staff to teams ratio will drop lower and lower. They don't have the resource to hire more staff, and as a result they won't be able to support all the teams out there. Right now, they have about 15 staff member. How do you expect them to interact with all 800 teams? In the future, I suspect FIRST can only focus in creating the game, putting together a simple kit of parts with a good additional hardware list, hammer out the game rule, and host the competition at regionals and the championship event. Anything beyond that will be really hard for a non-profit organization to do. If teams want support, they will have to work hard themselves, and form organizations like WRRF.


So, think about those three topics before you go any further thinking about the growth of FIRST. I believe these three topics are essential to the possibility of FIRST's growth. Mean while, other aspect of this discussion are still open, such as "the success and down fall of a bigger FIRST", "returning FIRST participants taking a bigger role after they are done with school", and "more things that can be done to help FIRST expand".

Just one more thing to keep in mind. In my opinion, the point of FIRST is to expose more and more students out there and inspire them to be more interested in science and technology related areas. If the goal of FIRST is to have a positive impact in the culture and future generation of students, they will have to expand the program to every school across the country. It's not a matter of should they do it or not... It's a matter of how.

[Adam Y.]

Well, it will never happen, but I am happy to see the growth of FIRST because it tells me that the sciences are still respected in the US.

Heheh I know I am going on a physics feild trip tomorrow and only physics students are allowed to go. My mother asked how many buses are there and I said three coach buses. She was amazed.

The only chance that FIRST ever has of getting a team in each school is to get the schools to sponsor the teams. I played hockey growing up and I know that the budget for a high school hockey team is about $25,000 to $30,000 per year (it varies by a number of factors, but this is typical). If high schools foot such a large bill for a sports team, why not for a competitive team related to math and science? (Actually, they don't do it now since the demand isn't there yet, but that's where TV exposure and such comes in - but that's another topic.)

Our team's actually in our school budget. Unfortunatly our team is in New York so we are not going to be there for very long.