Who Builds your Bot?

[Etbitmydog]

Back in my day, our robot was somewhere at 40/60 built favoring the teacher. Maybe 30/70 design. I don't see how a robot can be built entirely by students though. Well, if it was just a drive and a program maybe, but a full multifunction robot, in my opinion, has to have some engineering input. I've seen some stuff now in college that I can relate to the robots from high school that wasn't near my level of understanding in high school, but maybe stuff that in depth isn't really a necessity in FIRST. Are 90% student built robots any good?

[AlbertW]

we built the entire bot ourselves, and when the parents tried to help, we got all protective and they never even got close

[Keith Chester]

Originally posted by Etbitmydog
Back in my day, our robot was somewhere at 40/60 built favoring the teacher. Maybe 30/70 design. I don't see how a robot can be built entirely by students though. Well, if it was just a drive and a program maybe, but a full multifunction robot, in my opinion, has to have some engineering input. I've seen some stuff now in college that I can relate to the robots from high school that wasn't near my level of understanding in high school, but maybe stuff that in depth isn't really a necessity in FIRST. Are 90% student built robots any good?

1089 not only had a good robot, it was amazing. I was there off and on during the first few weeks of build season. They managed to have a 90/10 student built robot, favoring the students. The 10 was an incredibly helpful and supportive parent who owned the bikeshop they worked in.

Of course I am biased towards their robot, so I'll let the fact that they were the ONLY rookies in the JNJ regional semi-finals stick out for it.

Do not underestimate the power of a dedicated student.

[Jupee]

This was our fourth year as a team, and when we started, no one really knew what was going, since our first meeting was just after the kickoff. Sooo, a lot of the work was done by the high school seniors while the college advisors did what they could to help. We have gotten to the point where the college students prompt ideas but only help when we are completely stumped, which is rare. OUr hich school students know how to do soo much-- from CNCing parts to programming and other important tasks. Our team isunique in that we don't have any professional engineers. The students do an amazing amount of work to make us successful.

[GregTheGreat]

I think that almost every team has to have some mentor involvement. With our team I would have to say that the students have the biggest input. The students have to have the ideas and they need to make them a reality. I think that FIRST is preparing us for the rest of our lives. Like many people in the first organization have said, "Many Engineering Based Jobs Go Uu-filled Every Year". With the menors help, we are on the front of technology. Most if not all of the members from our team go on to college, and many earn first year salaries just shy of 100k. Without the mentors I believe that none of this would be possible. I think that it is good for the students to run the show, but it helps when you have professionals teaching you how to do it correctly. The mentors often help the rookies the most, and usually by the time that they are on the 2nd or 3rd year of the program then they no longer need much help from the mentors. They open the door for us, we are the one that has to walk through it.

Good Luck to everyone at the invatationals this year. See you guys at IRI

[Gadget470]

470's Policy is: If a student can do it, they do it. If a student can't do it, train them. If they can't be trained, work with them.

I would say 90%+ of all aspects of the team were student governed, designed, machined, and built. Mentors helped only with small factions of the robot itself, mostly just because the people with expertise in the area had their time enveloped in something else. There is no part on 470's bot that was "Mentor Built" everything was "Student Built" or "Student Built, Mentor Assisted"

[Jared Russell]

Originally posted by Etbitmydog
Back in my day, our robot was somewhere at 40/60 built favoring the teacher. Maybe 30/70 design. I don't see how a robot can be built entirely by students though. Well, if it was just a drive and a program maybe, but a full multifunction robot, in my opinion, has to have some engineering input. I've seen some stuff now in college that I can relate to the robots from high school that wasn't near my level of understanding in high school, but maybe stuff that in depth isn't really a necessity in FIRST. Are 90% student built robots any good?

Our 100% student-built machine won the Galileo Division, won a regional Leadership in Control Award, and just yesterday won the PARCVI.

[Matt Reiland]

Not sure why this thread is started before, during and after each and every season in FIRST. If your team built the robot with students, Great. If it was entirely by engineers and the students worked with them and learned, Great. If it was a mix, Great.

The teams that boast of no mentor involvement or engineer involvement IMHO are completely missing the point of FIRST. The way I see it, FIRST is where we are all there to work together and learn. As I say every year, if you are so super excited about running milling machines, lathes, and welders, realize that maybe you are interested in a skilled trade and not engineering or science.

If I would have had an opportunity even close to this in high school way back in the early '90's (Getting old) I would have jumped on it just to be able to work with more experienced people who might know a better way to do things and find out if that was where my future lies. Every single person here both students and engineers has something left to learn. It seems many of you don't know how lucky you are to have the 'privileges' that you do in FIRST, I never had them.

[Jared Russell]

I don't think we're missing the point at all.

We, the students, built a machine with our own hands and watched it win. It would not have been the same experience with a engineer-built robot, or even with an even mix. Last year's season wasn't nearly as exciting with a primarilly engineer-built design.

When our team (and most teams) boast of 100% student-built designs, we're not saying that we didn't have mentors. We aren't saying that we, and our mentors, didn't spend countless hours learning new things. We are just saying that when the time came, the final bot was built by the students.

Nor is this to say that all we did was run mills and lathes. Sure, that's what some of the students did, and wanted to do, but we also designed the entire robot from the ground up. We were even able to win a technical award at the Philly regional. Mechanical, electrical, software - all of it was student-done.

We did have mentors present during nearly all of the build season, but they mentored. They did not do the work for us. They answered our questions, showed us how to do things, and this worked spectacularly for all students involved. I think the reason that people point this out is that so many teams go the complete other way, letting adults build practically the whole robot for them. That is missing the point of FIRST.

Either way, if you had fun and learned new things, you are doing it right. And we did it right this year.

[GregTheGreat]

Originally posted by Matt Reiland
Not sure why this thread is started before, during and after each and every season in FIRST. If your team built the robot with students, Great. If it was entirely by engineers and the students worked with them and learned, Great. If it was a mix, Great.

The teams that boast of no mentor involvement or engineer involvement IMHO are completely missing the point of FIRST. The way I see it, FIRST is where we are all there to work together and learn. As I say every year, if you are so super excited about running milling machines, lathes, and welders, realize that maybe you are interested in a skilled trade and not engineering or science.

If I would have had an opportunity even close to this in high school way back in the early '90's (Getting old) I would have jumped on it just to be able to work with more experienced people who might know a better way to do things and find out if that was where my future lies. Every single person here both students and engineers has something left to learn. It seems many of you don't know how lucky you are to have the 'privileges' that you do in FIRST, I never had them.

I think that you understand the aspect of FIRST perfectly. I can guarantee you that every rookie has needed help with something. The point of FIRST is to have involvement from the mentors and the students. Everyone of us were rookies at one time. I personally do the programming for my team. I am the only one on our team, thats a big responsibility especially in this game. After weeks of practice with engineers, I can just sit down and write code, as if it were a second language. I rarely need the help of the mentors any more, and that is what first is about. It is about training the future of tomorrow. What I always say, I would rather learn then win. The place doesn't matter, what matters is the knowledge learned and the fun you have while doing it.

Good Luck to everyone this year at the invitationals.

[John JediMaster]

designed completely by the students
built completely by the students (welded by a freshmen)
coded entirely by students (crazy russian programer)

NO ENGIENERS to speak of this year and we won GM design award at new york regional. last time we won that was three years ago WITH engineers.

Our bot can pull a COROLA (note. no driver) and it held off two bots during a match in which we won with 193 regular points and over 200 qps.

I'd say that's what you can do with no engineers.

[Matt Reiland]

Originally posted by John JediMaster
designed completely by the students
built completely by the students (welded by a freshmen)
coded entirely by students (crazy russian programer)

NO ENGIENERS to speak of this year and we won GM design award at new york regional. last time we won that was three years ago WITH engineers.

Our bot can pull a COROLA (note. no driver) and it held off two bots during a match in which we won with 193 regular points and over 200 qps.

I'd say that's what you can do with no engineers.

Hmmm, another individual who misses the point of FIRST, maybe BBIQ is the tournament you wish to compete in, entirely student built and designed.....

As for pulling a corolla, ours pulls pretty much anything on flat smooth surface, it pulls semi trucks down hills and even accelerates. Fending off robots, which ones? I doubt you could fend off Wildstang & Nachi, or Technocats & Chief Delphi to name a few...

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by Matt Reiland
Hmmm, another individual who misses the point of FIRST, maybe BBIQ is the tournament you wish to compete in, entirely student built and designed.....

But are they missing the point, or just seeing a different approach to the competition? For five years, we built all our robots out of the school auto shop with just a teacher to guide us. I think the students learned more that way than we would have if we were less involved in the process. However, given our added assistance from GM this year, I can say I've seen it both ways. The learning happens in different ways, but the experience is just as valuable whether you have engineers or not.

[the doors]

I think that arguing to the point of hurt feelings is what has really missed the point of FIRST. There will always be different approaches to performing tasks, whether it is building a robot or anything else in life. I support debates, etc. but I strongly disagree with the agressive and somewhat mean posts that have been showing up on this thread and feel that arguments amongst teams is most definitely not the point of FIRST.

[Matt Reiland]

Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin
The learning happens in different ways, but the experience is just as valuable whether you have engineers or not.

I am not posting in this thread to hurt anyones feelings, quite the opposite.

No one in FIRST should be cheering or bragging that they went through the year without any engineering or technical support. They should be just the opposite, somewhat upset that they haven't fully experienced what FIRST is all about, that is to work hand in hand (Students & Mentors) with experienced people in industry. Which is exactly why I say what I do about BBIQ, if building a robot is all that concerns you, FIRST isn't the right event for that. Building a robot, machining, welding, they are all just small parts to the FIRST experience as a whole.