Virtual Team Forum

[A. Snodgrass]

Does that mean that we should have awards for specific groups now? I dont believe having segmented awards would be the answer.

[Madison]

Originally posted by A. Snodgrass
Does that mean that we should have awards for specific groups now? I dont believe having segmented awards would be the answer.

I didn't establish the precedent.

[Bill Gold]

Originally posted by A. Snodgrass
Actually Im against the creation of an award strictly for college students. Let me explain why: I see too many college students not being able to balance well college and FIRST mentorship as it is!
With the new drive to push college students as mentors and to get their colleges involved in FIRST, and the time they devote to the program, how do they have time to seriously split their lives. College is a little different then the workplace, and frankly I think it is a place to prepare ALL of us to be better mentors. This is not to say that you shouldnt mentor or volunteer, but it is to say that there needs to be balance. Also Ive seen students who have devoted too much time to this program while in college get burned out, sometimes from both first and college.
Also why should college student mentors be considered any more special then the rest of the mentors who put in so much time and effort?

I think that each college student mentor can decide for themselves how they balance courses and mentorship. I'm at my own pace (studies-wise), and wouldn't trade my experiences as a college mentor in this program the past 2 years for anything. I think it would be a step forward for FIRST to recognize the commitment of college students in these programs either by creating a new award in the shadows of the Woodie Flowers Award, or by amending the current Woodie Flowers Award to make all mentors eligible. I, also, like the idea of morphing the Woodie Flowers Award like the Regional Chairman's and National Chairman's Awards (this was discussed at the San Jose Team Forum). 25 Regional Woodie Flowers Awards given out (1 per regional, and no one wins more than once), and then the National Woodie Flowers Award recipient is chosen from those 25.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally posted by A. Snodgrass
Actually Im against the creation of an award strictly for college students. Let me explain why: I see too many college students not being able to balance well college and FIRST mentorship as it is!

So why shouldn't someone recognize the few that you believe are able to handle that much? Have you ever been in that position yourself? Some college teams don't have those engineers or adult mentors you're speaking of. So why shouldn't those collegiates be just as eligible?

'Too many' doesn't always mean all. Everyone has a different experience within FIRST. A lot of times, people get mixed up because college and FIRST both take up a lot of time and effort, but wouldn't that make the feat of keeping it all together all the more extraordinary?

[Greg Young]

We had a team meeting last night and I asked the students for their comments about the game and the competition this year. Only about a third of the team was there, but most of the core team members were there. The responses are taken directly from my notes. The students are identified by their functions on the team.

Driver/programmer/electronics/build:
Robot should have to do something more challenging - lift itself off the ground or climb something. Ideally, the field should look like a jungle gym.
More autonomous mode, as much as half the game.
Which will require a more capable controller/processor.
Headsets with mike for the field team so they can communicate during the game.
The driver couldn't see the robot a lot of the time this year.
The Walk from the pits to the field at Houston was too much.

Field strategist/build team:
The music at the driver station was too loud at Richmond, the allies couldn't hear each other to plan strategy.

Build team:
The game was too simple, not enough challenges.
The music was too loud.

Animator:
The field needs some dynamic element like the seesaw in 2001.
More autonomous, maybe even all autonomous.

Field strategist/build team:
The Walk at Houston was too much.
More autonomous mode.
Carpet is boring, make the playing field out of ice.

Build team:
More autonomous mode, make ending autonomous mode voluntary with a bonus for running autonomous longer.
More sensors and electronics allowed or in the kit.

My comments:
Autonomous mode was great. It should get longer. The idea of getting more points for doing more in autonomous is good.
There should be a single, very difficult task that will score lots of points and can't be easily undone. Not enough to win the game, but 30 to 40% of the available points.
The Walk at Houston was too much.
The pits at Houston were great.

Greg

[Ben Mitchell]

I agree with Greg ^^^


I also think: why should college mentors be given special priority over "regular" mentors? Should we make separate awards for every "kind" of mentor?

I agree with Ashlee on this one: college students should not be separated from normal mentors, for all the reason's she described. Although an award is a nice incentive, it could also be a potentially dangerous one for students not being able to juggle school/themselves/FIRST at once.

[Madison]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
I agree with Greg ^^^


I also think: why should college mentors be given special priority over "regular" mentors? Should we make separate awards for every "kind" of mentor?

I agree with Ashlee on this one: college students should not be separated from normal mentors, for all the reason's she described. Although an award is a nice incentive, it could also be a potentially dangerous one for students not being able to juggle school/themselves/FIRST at once.

The point is that they already are. College students, parents, and other non-engineer mentors are excluded, in writing, from eligibility for The Woodie Flowers Award. So, for as long as The Woodie Flowers Awards remains to recognize an outstanding engineer or teacher, the other people who give so much of their time to this program, college students, parents, and volunteers alike, all deserve that we take a moment and thank them. If someone does something exemplary for a team, or for the organization of FIRST, they deserve special recognition.

Like I said earlier, I didn't establish the precedent.

Furthermore, I think everyone's made the point that such an award should require that students successfully balance school, FIRST, and their other priorities.

[Ben Mitchell]

Then you must define "college student"

Could I take 1 or 2 night classes at the local community college, and do FIRST the rest of the time, and be eligible?

Could I be taking extra night classes as an adult, and be considered a college student?

Then why don't we make an award for the most distinguished disabled mentor, and the best woman mentor, and the best minority mentor, and the best redhead trilingual mentor, and...

[JVN]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
Then you must define "college student"

Could I take 1 or 2 night classes at the local community college, and do FIRST the rest of the time, and be eligible?

Could I be taking extra night classes as an adult, and be considered a college student?

Then why don't we make an award for the most distingiushed disabled mentor, and the best woman mentor, and the best minority mentor, and the best redhead trilingual mentor, and...

Ben,
I think your going overboard on the "specifics" of this. FIRST could have a review process similar to the existing Woodie Flowers award. Each team could submit one college mentor they feel is worthy of receiving this award. They will list the details of the mentor they state, as well as why they are deserving. The review process would take into consideration exactly how the college student balances his/her positive contributions to this program, with his/her academic studies.

I didn't mean to start this much controversy.
The way I see it. College mentors often put a LOT of hard work into this program. I'm not disrespecting the "adult" mentors who are a part of this competition. I simply felt that many college students deserve some recognition for their contribution to this program. I also feel that, while many of the college students put a lot in, they wouldn't be able to compete for the Woodie Flowers award with the likes of Andy Baker, Bill Beatty, Mike Bastoni, etc.(if you read my initial post, you'll see that I want MORE recognition for adult mentors as well!).

I just think that FIRST is leaning pretty hard on some college kids. For instance, more and more college students are volunteering/helping to run FIRST competitions. As I said above, FIRST is emphasizing college teams, and forming MORE college teams. In NH, Deano himself stood in front of the crowd, and challenged each and every HS senior to found a college team. In Seattle, Jeff Seaton did the same.

I mean... cmon. Do you honestly believe that FIRST would present these young college kids are with a Woodie Flowers award? "Woodie Flowers award winner 2004: Amanda Morrison, for her work in founding 1020, and her overwhelming contributions to the FIRST communitty!" I'd love to see it. It would prove FIRST has their "money where their mouth is.
But... it won't happen. THAT is why we need a seperate award.

We have College scholarships for HS participation. We have the Woodie Flowers award for Adult participation. Why not something else?

By the way Ben,
"The best red-head trilingual, redhead mentor" would be elligible for the Woodie Flowers award. Whereas (in my opinion) students like myself would not be. *shrug*

I hope this clears up my thoughts on this issue.

John

[Adam Y.]

quote:
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-Make rules WITHOUT loop-holes. Have them open-ended yet very specific on what you CAN'T do.
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Well, uh, it's pretty well impossible to make rules without loopholes.

you beat me to it.

[T967]

Carpet is boring, make the playing field out of ice.

YEAH!!!! Love the weird surface stuff. The HDPE and metal grating were great ideas this year.
I saw a picture of the first year of FIRST. Was that corn? if it was, I'm from Iowa we could easily get some corn for the next playing fields.

[UCGL_Guy]

#1 require a skilled operation that can't be undone once done - maybe something that probably would require 2 bots.
#2 liked the different surfaces not the cost of them though - stick with readily available materials
#3 Judging and the judging process needs looked at especially for the Chairmans award - ie all criteria stated up front and the judges have told me they would like more training/education.
#4Limit the number of teams to certain venues St. Louis was way to crowded and I believe each team only had 8 matches
#5 A better job was done this year on enforcing rules but I believe there is still room to tighten this up - Could we get one volunteer for each regional to get better training and be the ultimate judge.
I could donate and extra day - I don't have a life during the season anyway.
#6 Give rookies an extra 2 to 3 days - just to figure out how to ship the darn thing.
#7 College mentor award yep this needs to be done. Would showcase FIRST
#8 regional mentor award, parent teacher or dog doesn't matter.
#9 need another regional in the midwest - for our team it is either st. louis 8 hour drive or Houston 10 hour drive. Colorado / Denver is just as far so no relief there.

sounds good
Ken

[Erin Rapacki]

To define "college student," I'd make a requirement (and must submit proof) that the mentor is enrolled in a full-time undergraduate program at a college or university. Perhaps there should also be an age requirement too, something along the lines that they must be under 25 years old.

I suggested this at the Manchester forum, the idea of a College Mentor award was recieved rather well. I think it would be a nice addition, it may not have specific criteria... basically the team will tell the College student's story, and it'll be up to FIRST judges to decide who may have had the most impact on their team and on FIRST.

[Ken Leung]

Ahhhh... Multiple topics inside one thread... Must... Resist... Replying to all topics....

As far as a college mentor award goes, if it have to consider grades and how I do in classes, I am outta that league ;P.

Being a college student is a phase in life, the part where you do your own thinking and form your own opinion, the part where you try to see what life is and what you want to do with it, and the part that forge you into the adult you will become. I do FIRST during my college years because I was able to formulate the thought: "Doing FIRST is a right thing to do". It turns out it is one of the most important experience I've ever had growing up (not the participating with a high school team part, but the college years where I opened my mind to a bigger level of participating in FIRST).

It might not be the same for other college students. As much as I like having an award for college students and their contribution to this competition, I can't help but think about a concern I have. What if it sends the mixed message saying "FIRST is the greatest thing you can do. Come back again when you go to college"? Now, instead of opening the students' mind to do whatever they want to do at the school, we are just sending out more kids to colleges so they will start more college teams.

I just feel that's too heavy of a responsibility for the college students, at a delicate point of their lives where they are facing changes and possibilities. I am not saying they cannot handle it or anything. A lot of them can, and did. If we set up this award, now every new college student thinks they have to have a college team... And say each year 100 such students successfully recruit a new rookie team into FIRST... Even if 25% of those college students burns out because they cannot handle the initial stress of going to school AND FIRST, that's 25 student life that's affected by this award in a negative way.

I am not saying doing FIRST for college students is a bad thing. Not at all. What I am saying is, doing FIRST when you are at college is good, if you do it at your own pace, when you decide it will be a good experience for you. And that, I think, should be left to the college students decide. Not because some award in FIRST says "doing FIRST during college is cool!".

I just fear that someday when we tell the students too much what they should and shouldn't do, we will be limiting their vision when they are supposed to go see the world with an open mind. I want to stress the point open mind because I think that's a crucial element in the process of growing up, especially when you go off to college and started thinking "hmm... For the past 12 years I've been told what to think. Now it's time to form my own opinion about everything else". I just don't feel right when we spend too much effort attracting graduated high school student to come back to FIRST, and not spend enough time checking out the many things out there.

Again, I am not trying to say doing FIRST during college year is bad. I am just trying to a concern will happen if we do set this award up.

Sincerely,
Ken Leung

P.S. Oh yeah, I do think college kids should be recognized! I think FIRST should recognize us by setting up our own "FIRST College Student team party"!!! ;p ;p ;p. It would be great to have a park just to ourself for one night!

P.P.S. Oh yeah, just kidding... or am I? o =) Hehe, with enough of us college students getting to higher places in FIRST... This might actually happen one day. Kids, the moral of the story is, go to college!

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Ken L
P.S. Oh yeah, I do think college kids should be recognized! I think FIRST should recognize us by setting up our own "FIRST College Student team party"!!! ;p ;p ;p. It would be great to have a park just to ourself for one night!

P.P.S. Oh yeah, just kidding... or am I? o =) Hehe, with enough of us college students getting to higher places in FIRST... This might actually happen one day. Kids, the moral of the story is, go to college!

And here I'm just hoping to stop getting accussed of being a high school student. I need to think big in the future.

Matt