Virtual Team Forum

[JVN]

Originally posted by Ken L
I can't help but think about a concern I have. What if it sends the mixed message saying "FIRST is the greatest thing you can do. Come back again when you go to college"? Now, instead of opening the students' mind to do whatever they want to do at the school, we are just sending out more kids to colleges so they will start more college teams.

Ken,
FIRST is ALREADY sending that message to college kids. I wish to god Deano would get up on stage next year and say something like:

"Now, all you graduating HS seniors, here is your homework for next year. I want you to go off to college, and explore new things. I want you to get to know yourselves, and learn who you are. I want you to get used to college life, and I want you to focus on your grades. Remember kids, your grades are very important for your future, don't sacrifice them for playing with robots!"

(this is the speech I give new Freshman on my team) but Deano WONT DO IT!

As long as Deano is herding HS FIRSTers onto college teams like cattle, he might as well reward the ones who do it right.

John

[Matt Leese]

The bigger problem (as far as I've seen it) is that freshman college students are encouraged to immediately become involved in a team in college. Then, for a variety of reasons, they often become disenchanted with their college team. And this has the ability of turning them off to FIRST altogether. It's really unfortunate but it seems as if that's the way it happens.

Matt

[Ken Leung]

Originally posted by JVN

As long as Deano is herding HS FIRSTers onto college teams like cattle, he might as well reward the ones who do it right.

John

Don't want to post too much in here about this, because this topic deserve a thread of its own (*wink* Brandon ).

Now that my new life long goal is to beat Dean someday (by inventing something better than the Segway, or FIRST, either one)... I suppose I don't have to agree with Dean all the time .

My problem is what Matt said. When we encourage the freshman college students to start their team in college right away, or be involved with an existing team, there are often the risk that there are too much stress between the changing of life style, school, and FIRST all together. There are some who can handle the stress... There are others who can't. Those who can't will become totally frustrated with FIRST, and eventually choose to ignor it like a bad year they don't want to remember. We have seen quite a bit of examples already. Not all the FIRST college students are still around anymore.

I think it is unfair if Dean/FIRST is shifting the responsibilities of getting more teams onto College Students' shoulder (I am not saying they are, I am just saying if they are doing it). I think it is unfair to ask someone who've been inspired by the program to do something better with their lives to come right back in and take on the job of inspiring more high school students, thinking it's the only thing they can do after they go to college. I think it is unfair that the inspiration for science and technology turns into inspiration for new college teams.

Doing FIRST during college year isn't a bad thing, as long as it's out of free will. As long as the college students are given all the options in front of them, knowing they can choose whatever they want, understanding the amount of stress and work it takes, and having some support to help them through it, then I have no problem with it. There will always be the Super College Students (SCS) who can do anything in the world twice in the time others can only do once... Those are the success among college FIRST participants... But they do not represent every college student out there. Those who aren't SCS might not get the reward they deserve by burning themselves out in a team freshman year.

To me, that's a reverse of what FIRST do to high school students.

If FIRST really wants to create college level participation and wants lots of it, they should work hard at creating a program designed for college students. Something that will fit into a full time student's schedule, something that will earn him/her credit during the school year, something that will recognize the amount of work they put into and how much the got from their participantions. Think along the line of co-op programs... The students will never be asked to work full time AND take the classes of a full time student. Instead, they are given credit for the job, or get paid by the company, and their school recognizes what they are getting out of the program. Now that's real support.

Honestly, I dont think it is a bad thing if a graduating high school student doesn't get involved with his or her college team their first year in college. Im not. In college, grades are your most important issue, not a robot or a robotics team that will most likely kill your GPA. I will be keeping in touch and volunteering at probably one regional next year and I should be loitering around the championships. This advice was given to me last week, but if you do not go with a team in college ever or right away, keep in touch with the program, keep in contact with your connections, and volunteer. One day down the road maybe one of your contacts might set you up with a good job after college.

So the long and the short of it:

If you don't join a team keep involved through volunteering at events and keep in contact.

[Madison]

...I think that what is or isn't important about college, FIRST, and their interaction should be left to the individual to decide.

It just breaks my heart and destroys my hope to see everyone so intent on conforming to the system and playing by the rules.

I thought that this was the group that was supposed to change the way the world works, really. But every day, I'm learning and seeing that it isn't true and that's very little left that seems to separate the people here from the people everywhere else.

[Adam Y.]

If FIRST really wants to create college level participation and wants lots of it, they should work hard at creating a program designed for college students. Something that will fit into a full time student's schedule, something that will earn him/her credit during the school year, something that will recognize the amount of work they put into and how much the got from their participantions. Think along the line of co-op programs... The students will never be asked to work full time AND take the classes of a full time student. Instead, they are given credit for the job, or get paid by the company, and their school recognizes what they are getting out of the program. Now that's real support.

I thought about creating a program that is like FIRST but is geared towards engineering schools. Then again I am only 16 and I am not even in college yet but if I ever did start it I would be doing so many cool challenges that do not involve robotics.

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally posted by M. Krass
...I think that what is or isn't important about college, FIRST, and their interaction should be left to the individual to decide.

It just breaks my heart and destroys my hope to see everyone so intent on conforming to the system and playing by the rules.

I thought that this was the group that was supposed to change the way the world works, really. But every day, I'm learning and seeing that it isn't true and that's very little left that seems to separate the people here from the people everywhere else.

Why, because people want to focus on their grades rather than play with robots for 6 weeks?

If you want to do college FIRST, start a team. If people do not want to kill themselves in college doing FIRST and school at once: why should they be pressured into it?

If it was up to me, I'd work on getting the current FIRST teams up to a satisfactory level, rather than start new ones. To me, better teams are more important than more teams, and mulitiyear teams are more important than rookie teams.

If anything, pressure current teams to make the best robot the can. Forget making more teams while current teams remain unable to field a working robot at thier regional events.

[Madison]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
Why, because people want to focus on their grades rather than play with robots for 6 weeks?

If you want to do college FIRST, start a team. If people do not want to kill themselves in college doing FIRST and school at once: why should they be pressured into it?

What? When did I ever come remotely close to writing that? In fact, the first line of my post suggests that it should be left to the individual to decide what's most important to them.

It has nothing to do with pressuring anyone to start a team, or pressuring them to keep their grades up. It's all about recognizing that the mold isn't one size fits all and that, for some of us, things work out a little differently.

I chose FIRST over college, taking this last semester off rather than letting my grades suffer as they'd done previously. Will I be in school longer as a result? You betcha. Do I regret it? Not for a second. I made that seemingly unpopular decision on my own, and I get really tired of seeing the entire world rag on it as if it's a "bad choice."

It's a choice. Let it be a choice. Part of college is growing up. Part of growing is making choices. Part of making choices is learning to live with their consequences.

Why, if Dean and Woodie continually coax us on to be involved in college, is there so little collegiate support for college-aged FIRST mentors? Just as high schools have adapted curricula to the FIRST program that allows their students to receive credit and compete with their team, why isn't there a similar movement or support for a movement for college students?

Clarkson allows this, to an extent, in that the work done for their team can be applied toward the requirements of some majors. Why is Clarkson an exception?

Instead of challenging that convention, it's a lot easier and makes a lot less waves to give the popular answer and say, "Concentrate on your grades because they're more important." Maybe.

We don't all color inside the lines, and it's a bit tiresome to think that the only suggestion we're ever given, and the only precedent we're bothering to set is a mantra that encourages following the status quo.

I just can't understand the predilection that most people have toward choosing grades over mentorship, particularly when all of that combined energy, manpower, and experience could be so much better at really effecting change in the lives of those people.

Wouldn't it be better for FIRST, and us as an extension of the home office, to work at integrating FIRST mentorship into our college curriculum and requirements than it might be for FIRST to lose the students its invested so much in already to burn out and concern over better grades?

I just don't see this as a case of either/or, though anyone is empowered to make that decision for themselves. I see this as "why not both?" Maybe I'm just selfish.

[JVN]

Originally posted by M. Krass
Clarkson allows this, to an extent, in that the work done for their team can be applied toward the requirements of some majors. Why is Clarkson an exception?

Brief Aside:
Clarkson University emphasizes "Team, Project Based Learning" wherever possible. The FIRST robotics team falls under a program known as SPEED (Student Projects for Engineering Experience and Design). Through this program, the members of our team are eligible for "Pass/Fail" Credit which can be applied toward a profesional elective later on. Members are also eligible for completing independant study projects, which yield, normal course credit.

The cool thing is... Senior year, all Clarkson Mechanical Engineers need to complete an "Integrated Design Project" working in a group. FIRST robotics qualifies as one of these projects. So we have 5 seniors who work on our robot design, and submit a large report based on the design and analysis as their capstone course for Mechanical Engineering.

I can't wait to be a senior, because when I take Integrated Design, FIRST will be my primary class!

I believe several other schools do similar things, but I'm not sure.


John.

For more information on Clarkson University, check out: www.clarkson.edu

[Andrew]

Why, if Dean and Woodie continually coax us on to be involved in college, is there so little collegiate support for college-aged FIRST mentors? Just as high schools have adapted curricula to the FIRST program that allows their students to receive credit and compete with their team, why isn't there a similar movement or support for a movement for college students?

Well, college curricula are developed and executed by the faculty. FIRST is not perfectly suited to incorporation in most engineering curricula. So, someone has to "be clever" to accomplish the adaptation. Then, he has to sell this idea to the entire college/university faculty, usually at several levels. This is a difficult, time-consuming process with no tangible reward to the faculty member.

Some faculty are forward looking and have been undertaking this task at a few institutions over the past decade.

The administration at these institutions also has to be convinced to put together the resources to support the activity (usually money, space, faculty/student time, fabrication resources). What is the benefit to the institution? How does this activity fall within the institution's mission (which is usually educating college students, not mentoring high school students).

How can high school students best help this process?

Go to a school that already has a FIRST team and tell the administration that you chose that school because of the FIRST team.

Or, try to get a faculty member involved by selling him on the benefits (to him and the school) of a FIRST program. Point those faculty members to existing "model" programs.

Or, include Krispy Kreme donuts in your fund-raising activities. Make sure the faculty know that continuing receipt of KKs is contingent on the continuation and growth of the FIRST team.

I just can't understand the predilection that most people have toward choosing grades over mentorship, particularly when all of that combined energy, manpower, and experience could be so much better at really effecting change in the lives of those people.

Blame all of your colleagues who get poor grades due to excessive partying for this predilection.

[Amanda Morrison]

I fully agree, and thank you for the great ideas. I hope to use some of them... and of course, incorporating FIRST into the BSU curriculum would not only be a benefit to the institution itself, but also a stairway to greater community involvement.

And John, thank you for the shameless plug for Clarkson.

[Rich Wong]

Originally posted by JVN
FIRST is ALREADY sending that message to college kids. I wish to god Deano would get up on stage next year and say something like:

"Now, all you graduating HS seniors, here is your homework for next year. I want you to go off to college, and explore new things. I want you to get to know yourselves, and learn who you are. I want you to get used to college life, and I want you to focus on your grades. Remember kids, your grades are very important for your future, don't sacrifice them for playing with robots!"

John [/b]

Good point and good idea, I'm going to try and bring this idea to Dean's attention next month when I visit FIRST in NH.