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Unread 15-06-2003, 11:33
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Andy Grady Andy Grady is offline
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Unofficial Chaos

Unfortunately Battlecry left quite a nasty taste in my mouth for myself, my teamates, and our alliance partners. Now there is nothing that I can say or do that will go back and change what happened yesterday, the rulings, the arguements, or anything. I just want our feelings to be known just so teams can understand why we were so upset yesterday after the DQ, and so that future competition planners can take from this to provide an experience that may be less contraversial and more fun...

Many of you may have heard about the happenings at Ralley in the Valley a couple of months ago. For those who don't, there was a contraversial ruling on tipping against team 121 which they were forced to remove the wedge from their robot because they tipped another robot while fighting for the top of the ramp. As you know, tipping on the ramp was a frequent occurance over the course of the offical FIRST season, and was considered completely legal unless it was extremely blatent. (Which usually came when teams with arms put them up at an angle that would make it impossible for a team not to tip). Well, the referee's at Ralley had decided to make a statement on the move by forcing 121 to remove the wedge from the robot for the finals. Unfortunately the ruling caused for many teams to leave Ralley upset, and caused alot of contraversy.

One of the teams at Ralley who was involved in the whole tipping/pinning fiasco as 190, the hosts of Battlecry. In an effort to try to avoid the same contraversy that Ralley had fallen victim to, they changed the rules to further clarify tipping. These rules were extremely strict when it came to wedgebots and were implimented both online with a few extra clarifications being made at a meeting earlier in the day. In the quarterfinals, 121 tipped 190 on top of the ramp, and got DQ'ed further eliminating them and my team from the competition.

Our beef lies with this. The whole day due to the rules that were set forth, both team 121 and 126, who were pretty much the only two wedgebots at the competion, had felt like thier "hands were tied" for the whole competition as we were not able to use our robots for what they were designed to do, due to the fact that we had to be extra careful not to break the tipping rule. And just so teams understand, contrary to popular belief, our robots WERE NOT designed for the soul purpose of tipping other robots over! We built a wedgebot because of our belief that teams would use any means necessary to anchor themselves to the top HDPE surface, so we had every right to take any means necessary to create a design to remove those robots as well as any other strong robots from the top of the ramp. At various points during the day, the fear of being DQ'ed had cost us rounds due to the fact that we could not just drive up to push a team up and off the top of the ramp due to the fact that we were afraid of being DQ'ed for something that until Battlecry was a completely legal maneuver. Furthermore, 121 had been warned early in the day for tipping in autonomous mode...something that they had no control over, and that if they did it again, they would be DQ'ed. In quarterfinal match 1, we were tipped in autonomous mode by a non-wedgebot, no warning given to them. Also couple this with the fact that after the DQ to 121 for tipping, in a later round in a play that looked exactly the same minus the wedge, 176 tipped 157 and did not get DQ'ed. As you can see, due to the fact that we were wedgebots, it was almost as if we were singled out...at least that is what our feeling was. That is what we were all upset about.

Like I said, what happened yesterday, I cannot change. I can just warn teams who are to run competitions in the upcomming year that this is a very fine-line call that could cause alot of problems if it is not dealt with correctly. It is my feeling at least that organizers should be very careful when tinkering with the rules that FIRST had adhered to all year long, as everytime there has been a deviation from what FIRST's standard call was, there has been major problems.

In closing, I do want to congratulate the competition staff for what otherwise was a very well run competition due to all the hard work and effort. And I appologize to those staff members who may have been upset when teams flipped out at them, as I know you all were just doing your job...a very difficult one at that.

Thank You,
Andy Grady

p.s. Brandon, please do not delete this post...lock it if you must, but please privately talk to me before doing anything more than that.

Last edited by Andy Grady : 15-06-2003 at 11:48.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 12:51
Jeff Rodriguez Jeff Rodriguez is offline
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Concerning wedges and the sort:

I remember hearing somewhere (either philly or over a webcast) that wedges that were used to hold position on top of the ramp were fine. But wedges that were used to attack up the ramp with were much more likely to be DQ'd. I think it was at philly, and a few teams that had wedges then went up the ramp backwards, with a square end, and then defended their position with the wedge. This seems like a very fair basis to judge calls.

Just letting you know.

And about 121 getting warned for tipping an auto mode, that's stupid. There's no way they intended it, and if the refs had watched, thats what their auto mode did all the time, whether there was another robot there or not.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 13:00
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What I really wanna know is, ok 121 was DQed so why wasn't 176? What was different that made t ok? The refs got themselves into that problem and they should have stuck to what they were doing. If they had made a bad call to 121, they have to keep doing to make if far. I feel exaclty how you do Andy.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 14:18
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Quote:
And just so teams understand, contrary to popular belief, our robots WERE NOT designed for the soul purpose of tipping other robots over!
But isn't that the sole purpose of any wedge design?
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Unread 15-06-2003, 14:43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adam Y.
But isn't that the sole purpose of any wedge design?
The purpose of a wedge is to gain a mechanical advantage; in this case, over a competing robot.

While the tipping of another robot is incidental to the use of a wedge at its purest function, it's clearly an obvious concern. Teams that added such devices to their robots are aware of that concern and accept the consequences.

Disqualifications and questions of intent are the consequences. Such rulings may not be fair, consistent, or correct, but those are the breaks. That's what you signed up for when you added a wedge to your robot, and you also agreed that the referee's decision was final. You don't deserve an explanation, answers, or a second-chance.

I can't say that I sympathize with the frustration you may feel because winning the competition -- heck, winning a round -- isn't important to me. I do grow tired of these complaints, though, because, again, it always seems to me that the only people that ever complain are the people who're directly affected.

It's just a game, folks. Enjoy it when you play this time around and learn for when you play it the next time around. If you'd like me to compile a list of some causes that affect people beside yourselves, so that you may better direct your energy toward making someone's life better, I'd be happy to do that for you.
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Last edited by Madison : 15-06-2003 at 14:46.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 15:37
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According to posts made on ChiefDelphi forums..

Every game has an unfair advantage; every match, a rightful winner; every team, a right to be angered. The best advice I can offer is this: although true as that may be, it's the way you handle the games, matches, and teams that earns you respect in this program, not the number of medals around your neck or trophies in your case.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 15:39
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This is how I saw it... 121 ran up the ramp and got the other team off(nice job) then as the team was on the other side of the ramp 121 ran down the ramp straight into them and kept going until the robot flipped... That's how I saw it...
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Unread 15-06-2003, 15:46
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Guys this is turning into the typical post season event referee bashing thread. It seems the referees are bashed after pretty much every post season event.

FIRST is a game. It is not life. If the calls go against you, you will live. I promise all of you, nobody is gonna suddenly keel over and die due to a referee or even driver error. If you do there's gotta be someone there in the crowd who knows CPR. So why not cut the referees some slack and talk about the positive stuff that happened at Battlecry? All this thread is gonna do is cause fights about things that can't be changed.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 16:39
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Andy Grady Andy Grady is offline
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My Intent...

The intent of this thread was not to referee bash. It was not to bash any of the hard working members of team 190 either. Battlecry was an excelent competition which fell victim to contraversy. When you have contraversial plays, contraversial calls, contraversial reactions, the result can be a very negative thing for a competition. You are right, this is just a game, this isn't about winning or losing. But when I see things like what happened yesterday, with everyone getting all upset, booing, and so forth, there are no winners...and what should have been seen as one of the best competitions of the year, left an empty feeling for some people. The purpose of this thread was not to create more contraversy, or continue it. The purpose of this thread is to try to prepare those who will be organizing competitions this year for what could be a growing and very headachy problem.

For the sake of FIRST and everyone's sanity, I ask anyone who replys to this thread not to referee bash, team bash, or individual bash. Lets try our best to be constructive about this, or else this thread is just going to be locked anyway.

Also, if my original post came off as if it were bashing the refs, 190, or anyone else...please accept my appology.

Thank you,
Andy Grady
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Unread 15-06-2003, 17:03
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Quote:
The purpose of a wedge is to gain a mechanical advantage; in this case, over a competing robot.
Yeah but as I see it. Anyway you cut it, slice, or dice it, a wedge's purpose is to get underneath a robot. I have no probelms against them though I am just pointing out the obvious.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 17:04
EddieMcD EddieMcD is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean_330
Guys this is turning into the typical post season event referee bashing thread. It seems the referees are bashed after pretty much every post season event.

FIRST is a game. It is not life. If the calls go against you, you will live. I promise all of you, nobody is gonna suddenly keel over and die due to a referee or even driver error. If you do there's gotta be someone there in the crowd who knows CPR. So why not cut the referees some slack and talk about the positive stuff that happened at Battlecry? All this thread is gonna do is cause fights about things that can't be changed.
To continue on this, rule GM2 gives the referees god-like power in FIRST. If you don't like it, no matter what your team or robot is, then that's too bad. Weather it's fair or not, the referees are in charge. When you participate in any FIRST event, official or unofficial, you are agreeing to play by all the rules in the book. So what the ref says, goes.

::points to rule GM28 and the Battlecry SITREPs for more on the above and tipping. don't want to type it all out again::

I don't know anything about 121 being warned about the tip in auto-mode, but if it's true, the refs may be right about this. I don't think there's a rule that protects actions in autonomous mode, and DQ1 seems to make it even more favorable to the refs on this one. <edit>Check out DA7 as well.</edit>

Quote:
What I really wanna know is, ok 121 was DQed so why wasn't 176? What was different that made t ok? The refs got themselves into that problem and they should have stuck to what they were doing. If they had made a bad call to 121, they have to keep doing to make if far.
The reason 176 wasn't DQed was because they barely moved. 157 was being the agressive one in that confrontation to get the 25 points. Yes, 176 they did have some movement, but no where near enough to tip 157 on it's own. Rule GM27 says that pushing is expected, and it really wasn't much of a push anyway. Besides, I don't think 157 was angry with that situation anyway.

Other than all that though, I had a wonderful day. I was with friends the whole time, the food is always pretty good, and it was full of robot action (the elim. rounds took forever). I even got to meet Andy Baker. So it was a d@mn good time.

Last edited by EddieMcD : 15-06-2003 at 20:33.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 17:25
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tipping at Battlecry

I applaud the BattleCry judges for making good calls all throughout the event. The rules were set out plain and simple before the competition and they were enforced accordingly. Great job Refs.!!!!

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Unread 15-06-2003, 18:10
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Alright, I would like to offer my views on this subject based on what I saw and heard, on a very different side of the table (literally) than most anybody else was. I was one of the BC4 staff members sitting behind the control/media tables, working on the real-time production of our closing video presentation.

Now, any team 190 member who is a BC staff member is staff. The event is run such that there is no biases towards any teams, even though that we as team 190 "run" the event; there are those staff members that are not on any team, even FIRST representatives -- and we are expected to have the same unbiased views as they would have.

As I was sitting behind the table watching this match, I cringed as I saw my team's robot pushed off and flipped. However, that was that.. just another match; I didn't think much of it. As I saw the refs gathering around the scoring table I overheard some of the things they were saying. They were discussing the flip and the rules as well, with a few BattleCry staff overlooking. I heard something such as, "well that means that the blue alliance will be DQed." I thought to myself, "wow, that means that the red alliance advances... and wow, this is gonna look bad for us." BattleCry staff members who are also on team 190 had no input whatsoever as to the final decision -- there were those who certainly disagreed with it too. I simply would like to point out that the decision was not biased against the fact that the flipped team was hosting the competition, and all referees had some input into the matter.

With that said, a few people came over to the mixing station to watch a replay of what had happened that match. I know the refs are always very nervous after making a call such as that, especially with the ability for replay, in the case that they are wrong. After watching, they were certain that the right call was made. Team 190 was on their crab wheels, trying to move sideways to avoid the wedge on the front of 121, whom just continued to drive until 190 was completely flipped.

As for the other flippings, I can't make any comment on most of them because I was too busy working on the final video cut, but I do know that for one of them, the flipped team was actually the agressor rather than just sitting there or trying to retreat. Again, as per the clarified tipping rules, the decisions were based on which team was the agressor, and the final decision is left to the referees.

This whole incident is quite unfortunate, but it was the right call; I am very sorry to discover that such veteran teams (in both FIRST, and BattleCry) would actually leave before the end of the day simply because of a call they did not agree with. That is very ungracious, in my opinion, and almost a kick in the face to all the event staff who volunteered so much time and effort to make the event a success -- everything from the award makers, video producers and editors, announcers, judges... just everyone. Especially when you are more than aware of the events that are to occur afterwards.

Anywho, I hope that everyone else managed to have a great time at the 4th annual BattleCry@WPI... more work than ever before went into this year's competition, and we feel that it ran extremely well. The addition of a live video production was more than we ever expected -- multiple angles, instant replays, interviews between the matches, some fun animations, and a final closing video brought a whole new excitement to the competition (well, at least we thought so )
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Last edited by WernerNYK : 15-06-2003 at 18:17.
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Unread 15-06-2003, 18:38
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The Gray area of wedgebots...

This whole mess @ BattleCry got me thinking about wedgebots. I'm sure that we can go round and round until we have carpel tunnel syndrome about why teams choose to build wedgebots but in my mind it certainly seems that, whether it is the intention to do so or not they are ideal for tipping. So one has to wonder I believe that FIRST does have a rule which prohibits teams for building a device on their robot dedicated solely to the purpose of flipping. Visa vi the Team 121 (yes I know that wasn't their number then) robot of the 1997 competition. So the question is where does this leave wedgebots?? Are the designed specifically to tip?? Maybe yes...maybe no. What are we left with in this debate then?? Well what I think this comes down to is a debate which mirrors the one that tries to determine whether Napster and the like are legal or not?? Proponents point to the fact that Napster and its contemporaries have legitimate uses. Opponents point to the fact that these services are predominately used to pirate music.

A few other observations about wedgebots. They're definitely quite reminiscent of more than a few BattleBots designs I've seen...I make no judgment on whether that is good or bad. Also it seems ironic to me that prior to the year 2001, a game designed specifically to eliminate any malicious activities within the game, I can't remember a wedge bot as such.

Lastly my posts, as it seems sadly like BattleCry, are usually not complete without some degree of controversy. I can't help thinking that a lot of what this is about is teams that are tired of getting picked on. I think there are a whole host of teams out there who probably watched their robots tumble helplessly down the ramp at the hands of 121/126. Rally and BattleCry perhaps they attempted to right these wrongs in the post season. I think what BattleCry 4 might have shown us is that perhaps this is not the right time. It seems to me one of the reasons that teams had such a problem with these calls is that the move 121 performed I've seen it called legal a 100 times before and now all of the sudden it isn't...and why? Because they are 121? Because they have a wedge? Because some teams got beat up on?

Okay really Lastly this time. I have been trying hard to come up with what Woodie and Dean's reaction would have been if they had been there for these finals. It is the first time I remember in my FIRST experience with such widespread booing. In addition I happened to be sitting in front of one team and actually witnessed what looked like mentors stand up and shout "Yeah that's it take out 176." "Ya come on 69 get Aces." In addition the heckled the refs and booed through almost the entire match. If Woodie and Dean had been there...I fear we'd be condemned to a 2001 style game for the remainder of FIRST's existence :-/

My 2 cents and then some probably...

Justin
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Unread 15-06-2003, 19:13
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As someone who attended BattleCry 4 yesterday, I strongly opposed the referee's decision to DQ 121.

It seemed that 121 climbed onto the HDPE and in pushing 190 back onto the ramp, gained control of the top of the ramp. It looked like 190 tried to climb the ramp again or slide into a position to climb again and 121 moved forward to prevent them from returning. 121's robot got underneath 190's robot and 190 fell over. I would like to point out that 190's robot has a high center of gravity. This is not a criticism - it is merely an observation based upon watching earlier matches where their robot also tipped.

That said, this incident reflects a greater issue that has relevance beyond BattleCry. In my opinion, referees must consistently apply the rules of the competition. Warnings should be issued to all teams who use a strategy or display a behavior that the referees consider questionable. 176 and 157 were pushing each other. 121 and 190 were pushing each other. In only one match was an alliance disqualified from the competition.

The bottom line is that rules cannot be arbitrarily applied.

FIRST is a game, and it is a competition, but its consequences reach beyond the competition. FIRST teaches many life lessons. I heard one parent on team 121 say in explanation to a student, "Life isn't fair."

That is certainly the truth. However, we have a responsibility to ensure that in future competitions rules and regulations are applied equally to all teams. Imagine how the students of the disqualified alliance felt when they watched a similiar situation with 176 and 157 that, at the discretion of the referees, resulted in a drastically different outcome.

Now, I do not feel that this incident reflects upon team 190 or the way BattleCry4 was run in general. 190 is a veteran team that has displayed the highest integrity and has earned the respect of its fellow teams. I certainly have the greatest of respect for them. They organized and ran a professional and successful competition. I thank 190 and I thank the sponsors and volunteers who made BattleCry4 possible.

That is all.

Synthia
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