Unofficial Chaos

[Amy W.]

As a member of team 126, I think the call was perfectly legitimate. At first, I was upset, but after thinking about it reasonably, it makes sense...

It's true that we may have seen the same move called legal at regionals and nationals 100 times, but BattleCry was a different competition with some rule changes. Although some people may disagree with the rule, by attending BattleCry, we agreed to abide by it. Few people in the alliance deny that a rule was broken, but many argue that the rule was "illegitimate", "stupid", or "made up to help the host team". Personally, I don't believe that any of these things are true, but it doesn't matter even if they are because we agreed to the rule by competing. A rule can't be thrown out in the middle of a competition. That's when things would really start to get messy, if they weren't messy enough already. If the rule were to have been challenged, it should have been challenged before play began. I don't think that the refs or staff were out to get any particular team. They were just enforcing the rules.

I think that many of us have forgotten what is important in FIRST. It seems like it is becoming more and more about winning, especially for the veteran teams. I hope that something good will come out of the bad feelings that some people have about BattleCry in that teams will reassess what FIRST is all about. According to usfirst.org "FIRST redefines winning for these students. Teams are rewarded for excellence in design, demonstrated team spirit, gracious professionalism and maturity, and ability to overcome obstacles. Scoring the most points is a secondary goal. Winning means building partnerships that last."

Finally, I'd like to extend my thanks to team 190 and the BattleCry staff for hosting the competition, and apologize for behavior that did not fall under the category of gracious professionalism. Unfortunately, this probably even includes my own.

I'm proud to be a four-year member of team 126, but BattleCry 4 was a somewhat disappointing end to my career as a student member of the team.

Amy

[Matt Goulart]

As a member of team 121 I would like to try to convey as best I can what happened yesterday, and why my team was so worked up afterwards. Before I do that I would first like to say as this being my first time at battlecry I was very happy with the better part of the day and while I cannot speak for my team I would like to attend again next year. For the most part the staff at battlecry was excellent, especially the judges who I thought made the best attempt possible to make things right. I would also like to point out that I am not out to bash the refs. I think for the most part they where very professional and were not bias against any team.

Our largest beef is not on the dq itself, but that we felt like a target from right off the bat. Almost as soon as we came in the door the head ref approached our team and told us that he would be watching us, and if a robot on the field was flipped and we where involved at all he would dq us. I do realize that this is the rule but I do not feel it was necessary to single us out like that. Now as far as I know we were the only team to get this warning.

Now during our match against rage we accidentally flipped them in autonomous mode. We where not gunning for them we used the same autonomous program we always have. The head ref came up to us and gave us a warning and said if it happened again we would be dq. I was manipulating the mach and I felt that it was just an unfortunate clash of two robots on top of the ramp and one got flipped. There was nothing either team could do to stop it, it just happened, so to warn us I felt was unnecessary.

Now during the last match I can say for certain that we were not trying to flip 190 we where just trying to get on the ramp. Nor do I think that if it had been another team on the ramp it would have been any different. I think it was a tough call but when it comes down to it we DID flip them and whether we intended to or not the rules say if you flip a robot you get dq.

So as I have tried to point out I do not believe it was that one match with 190 that has left distaste at least in my mouth but rather the treatment we received from the head ref. I would like to point out again that the rest of the staff was great and other than that I had a great time and would like to attend again next year.

[Adam Y.]

This whole mess @ BattleCry got me thinking about wedgebots. I'm sure that we can go round and round until we have carpel tunnel syndrome about why teams choose to build wedgebots but in my mind it certainly seems that, whether it is the intention to do so or not they are ideal for tipping. So one has to wonder I believe that FIRST does have a rule which prohibits teams for building a device on their robot dedicated solely to the purpose of flipping. Visa vi the Team 121 (yes I know that wasn't their number then) robot of the 1997 competition. So the question is where does this leave wedgebots?? Are they designed specifically to tip?? Maybe yes...maybe no.

Quoted from a book I have:

The wedge uses an inclined front scoop to lift the opponent on impact, breaking its contact witht he ground and depriving it of traction.

Thus anything with a wedge on it will have to tip the robot to even have it be effective. Then again I am on a battlebots train of thought. If anyone can tell me how a wedge can be used without tipping a robot I would be glad to know.

[Pin Man]

What I think they should do is have a slope or an angle limit to avoid the wedges flipping...

[Rurouni]

Let's get past the controversy with the call on 121. I watched the match, and yes I was surprised and upset when the call was made. I don't agree with the call, but I do abide by it. I'm am not going to try and fight either way, because its in the past. Live and let live, you can't change anything.

I think as many have already mentioned, Battlecry 4 was alot of fun. It was my first off-season competition and I enjoyed it immensely. THere were alot of really good matches and I applaud W.P.I. for hosting such an event. It was a good chance to re-meet some FIRSTers that I haven't seen in a while, or have heard or talked to online but had never met. It was a good time, and I look forward to Battlecry 5, even if my team doesn't go.

[Anne George]

I would just like to say on Behalf of Team 166...thanks to Teams 69~Hyper and 1100~Tomahawks for being such great Alliance partners!!!
And to my Team...i am so proud of you guys... at Battlecry1 we came home with the Purple Heart award and 4 years later at battlecry4 we leave as victors!!!
i would also like to thank teams 229~Division by Zero, 176~Aces High and 1099~IBYSE for being such great competition during the finals.
i would like to congratulate 151~the Wildcards for doing such a great job even though they only had 2 team members there due to it being graduation...i was proud to be able to be your Human player up until finals...sorry i could help you during finals though...it would have just been too much of a conflict of interest to be though.
And Lastly to team 190~WPI thank you for once again putting on a great off season competition. i hope to be able to come again next year! And to those WPI students who saw me going through the fountain after the awards...the waters fine!!!!! Im not sick or nothing!!!!

I look forward to Battlecry 5, even if my team doesn't go.

Rurouni~I hope to see your team at Battlecry 5 next year! if nothing else you would probably be welcome to stay at my house that weekend seeing as im Pam's sister.

[Rick]

What you guys didn't think I was gonna post?

Listen everyone. This post may make you mad. But understand this: I'm trying to be as civil as possible. This is from my point of view and these are my words. I take full responsibility for them. With that disclaimer, here is my opinion:

Upon Arrival Out of the many people I have encountered at first events, the ones i normally talk to said this within the first minute of me talking to them:
"The new tipping rules are directed towards you"
My Reply: "I know "

Driver Meeting
Tipping was the main topic. I had a few questions but before i had a chance to ask head ref some questions, he had left. My next meeting with him was in our pit. When he was walking towards our pit I knew in the pit of my stomach he was coming over to talk about us having a so called "wedge bot". He said all the same things regarding tipping as were said in the drivers meeting. Now was my chance to ask questions. Oh and let me remind you these answers were conveyed as rude as possible. This question stuck out in my mind:

Ricksta121:Is pinning allowed on the ramp since it is not a field border and is a scoring object.
head ref:Why would you want to pin on the ramp?
R121inning an oppenent allows us to keep them there to prevent leaving either to make us lose the 50 qps for them being there or to go knock down a stack.
head ref:...The ramp is a field border it is pinning.

From playing in a regional, nats and 2 offseasons. Pinning on the ramp has been a-ok since it is not a field border. Anyways I asked other specific examples and other questions on tipping in general such as: accidents, auto-mode, etc. All answers again very rude. He left us with this:
"If a robot gets on top of you and you move a millimeter, I'm going to dq you"

A little while after our teams little q and a session, I talked to 126(wedgebot) and wanted to know if they had been talked to by the head ref. When i learned they hadn't been talked to I realized something. As one of the drivers I had to be UBER-careful while driving. Nice way to start the day huh?

Matches BeginI and our outher driver are very careful in driving and have only one incident when a robot was tipped. Watching RAGE go over and the Head Ref POINTING AT IT angrily and then after the match telling us a dq if it happens again, it all clicked in my head. I knew this ref had something against our robot.

Upon telling other teamates and teams about this "dq in auto" rule they were furious. Automonous is just that, the robot does its thing and you have no control over it. But wait we do! We could hit the red E-stop but then be penalized for 30 secdonds into the match. Everyone I talked to agreed and said this is getting way too out of hand....

The call...When the call was made I was not suprised. I was angry but not suprised. This ref had waited all day to make his dq against us and now he had his chance. I was not upset about the call, JUST THE WAY HE TREATED OUR TEAM WITH EXTREME PREDJUDICE FROM THE DRIVERS MEETING ON. The tip was unintentional but intent didnt matter since the rules were tinkered against us.

After the callMy team and I happened to talk to someone after the call. At first the majority of us were mad about the call. But we realized the rule was against us and wedges in general and could not change it. We then tried explaining our disgust with that head ref. Heres a little convo me and ken had.

R121: That ref was rude to us since he singled us out in our pit this morning and told us he was going to dq us.
someone: He is equally rude to everyone.
R121: WHAT! shouldnt that be grounds to not have him ref if this many people had thier event ruined from the begining becasue of this one man?
someone:....

I also told that someone: If that ref is here next year I wont be. He ruined my battlecry.

My conclusion
BC4 was my last compition as a driver. I could have handled losing, but just not like that. And I blame the predjudice against my teams robot in rules and in reffing as the cause. I can't say this is not ref bashing because it is. I've been flamed on the boards for not following gracious professionalism. Between Ralley and now I really truly have tried. But when an official ruins the day for an entire team, I cannot keep quiet. I really tried everyone, I really did. I have never been more opinionated about something so serious on these boards.

Also the way the other alliance on teams 96 and 782 acted was uncalled for. In QF1 they cheered so loud when 126 flipped in auto, i could hear their drive team across the field. And when a member from the alliance yelled "I love wedgebots" I almost lost it.

Oh Adam Y. the wedge is there to take away a pushing force, act as a fender, and dethrone opponenets on top of the ramp.

I hope your finally happy head ref, you got your dq.

[Madison]

Originally posted by Ricksta121
"The new tipping rules are directed towards you"
My Reply: "I know "

I'm going to venture a guess here and argue that the "new" (read: clarified interpretation of the) tipping rules weren't directed at you so much as they there to protect you -- and battlecry, for that matter, from the exact sort of behavior you're showing anyway. The point wasn't to single you out, but to give everyone a better understanding of how existing rules would be interpretted. Yet afterward, you are still here whining. Whatever.

Driver Meeting
Tipping was the main topic. I had a few questions but before i had a chance to ask head ref some questions, he had left. My next meeting with him was in our pit. When he was walking towards our pit I knew in the pit of my stomach he was coming over to talk about us having a so called "wedge bot". He said all the same things regarding tipping as were said in the drivers meeting.

That the referee was aware of your team's history, your boastful signature proclaiming the number of robots tipped, and your affinity for making a scene, is a bad thing? Again, I seem to recall so many teams and team members calling, hell, screaming for referees that knew what was going on.

Now that you've run into that ref., it's not such a great thing anymore? Isn't that a double-standard? Or, will you point to other threads here and note, uselessly, that you never supported such a call to action?

You write that you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions, but it's crystal clear that you're not. You are experiencing the consequences of your actions in every event you attend with all of the extra scrutiny you receive.

Why do people pay so much attention to your team? If you'd have kept your mouth shut over the past 6 months and you hadn't whined about how the referees were out to get you, how you shouldn't have been DQ'd, ever, and how you tipped over "X" number of robots, nobody would know you exist.

Face it and please stop being a whore for attention. You're giving FIRST and all the good things I work so hard for a bad name, and it makes me sick.

Accept the consequences and the responsibility for you and your team's behavior over the past several years. Know that every time you compete for a long time to come, your actions, your words, and your adamant denial of fault in everything is going to lead to extra scrutiny. Know that there are teams and individuals in FIRST who will not ever again choose 121 as alliance partners, nor seek their advice or help because of your actions. Know the precedent you've established and own up to that, first. Then you can worry about accepting the consequences for what you've posted here.

I knew this ref had something against our robot.

It seems like, in his opinion, your team has consistently played maliciously throughout the 2003 season. Again, he is aware of that history and is aware of your predeliction toward making a scene. He warned you in advance, probably in an effort to avoid such a scene. It's only something personal, again, because you have to make it personal. Own up to what you've done, suck it up, and move on. Nobody's going to cry you a river because you're acting like a selfish, spoiled, undeserving brat.

The reality of the call at Battlecry, or in Houston, or anwhere else is completely irrelevant. It's the way that you handle such situations that really says the most about your team; particularly moreso than any trophy could ever say. You've handled this, and many, many other similar events in truly bad form, and until that changes, you'll continue to experience negative attention. Maybe, in your eyes, any attention is better than none at all, but that'd be a sad thing to think about.

You've been given the opportunity, fairly or not, to be a better person and a better team than you've ever demonstrated yourselves to be. I'm waiting for the day that you'll all take advantage of that opportunity and behave like adults and, maybe, finally understand that there are more important things to be gained from this program than trophies, bragging rights, or banners.

[DanLevin247]

Some of you may have witnessed this...

At the midwest regional, my team ( 247 ) got into a pushing match with team 45. Our robot had an arm that could move roughly 190 degrees, but could also be used as a "wedge" if it were put down to the ground. Take a look at the videos of this match...is the best way to explain this. Our robot got under the tecnokats bot, and without flipping them over, sucessfully used a wedge design to our advantage. This is simple proof that there ARE ways of building a robot that can use a wedge without having to worry about flipping another robot.

[JVN]

Originally posted by M. Krass

Face it and please stop being a whore for attention. You're giving FIRST and all the good things I work so hard for a bad name, and it makes me sick.

Know that there are teams and individuals in FIRST who will not ever again choose 121 as alliance partners, nor seek their advice or help because of your actions.

I respect 121 as a team.
I respect the mentors on 121.
I respect the high school students on 121.

Every interaction I have EVER had with 121 has been positive.

I enjoy seeking their advice, getting their help, and giving them my help. I would choose 121 in a heartbeat as an alliance partner, and accept any invitation they would give me.

They work for the same things we all work for. We are all bound together by this competition. To judge them as a whole, based on some message board, is silly, and foolish.


John

[Madison]

Originally posted by JVN
I respect 121 as a team.
I respect the mentors on 121.
I respect the high school students on 121.

Every interaction I have EVER had with 121 has been positive.

I enjoy seeking their advice, getting their help, and giving them my help. I would choose 121 in a heartbeat as an alliance partner, and accept any invitation they would give me.

They work for the same things we all work for. We are all bound together by this competition. To judge them as a whole, based on some message board, is silly, and foolish.


John

I'm often foolish

You've seen things that I haven't, and I respect (a lot) the decisions you've made based on those experiences. I hope that I am incorrect in my personal feelings about 121, and I do genuinely want to see that the negative impression I've received changes, or that it's wrong entirely.

But, right now, I need to see it.

[Sean_330]

Can't we all just get along?

[Cory]

Originally posted by Ricksta121
Ricksta121:Is pinning allowed on the ramp since it is not a field border and is a scoring object.
head ref:Why would you want to pin on the ramp?
R121inning an oppenent allows us to keep them there to prevent leaving either to make us lose the 50 qps for them being there or to go knock down a stack.
head ref:...The ramp is a field border it is pinning.

From playing in a regional, nats and 2 offseasons. Pinning on the ramp has been a-ok since it is not a field border. Anyways I asked other specific examples and other questions on tipping in general such as: accidents, auto-mode, etc. All answers again very rude. He left us with this:
"If a robot gets on top of you and you move a millimeter, I'm going to dq you"

Have you forgotten the "all decisions made by refs are final" rule? It doesnt much matter why a ref made a decision, or what the content of the decision was. What it comes down to is, what the refs say is the law of the land, like it or not.

It doesnt matter what flew, or didnt fly at other competitions. you cant say "Oh, well at a competition 4 years ago we had so and so and it was considered legal, why cant this?" This is essentially the same argument you are making.


And in favor of the mass majority of "wedge bots":

At SVR, we were having some severe flipping problems ourselves, and had been considering making a wedge just so that some of the force of our opponents would be deflected upwards, and keep us from being flipped. I think this was the intention most teams had when making a robot with a wedge, and should be regarded as a perfectly legal strategy.

/me agrees with Sean.

Cory

[Brandon Martus]

This thread goes for 4 more hours, and then it closes.
Hope you all get a chance to get your last word(s) in.

[Amanda Morrison]

A referee's decision is the final word... until two hours later, when disgruntled teams come on these forums to show everyone that the ref 'had it out for them'.

It's a hard job to be referee. You go on personal opinion on a whim, and there is no turning back. If you are disgruntled that the ref had it out to get you from the beginning and so he gave you a bad call, all I can say is that you are probably wrong and should rethink this. Ask referees on this board about tough decisions... it isn't an easy job.

Ask Andy Baker about his final DQ call last year at IRI. Andy is a very respectable, honest, and fair person, and he got stuck in a bad situation. The outcome? Andy called the game according to what the book said and what he thought was right. The call was against my former team. When we got home from IRI, the kids were mildly disgruntled about the call. Our mentor told us, "Andy Baker is an honest guy. The referee's decision was a tough one to make, and Andy called it the way he saw fit. There's nothing wrong with that. We'll just try again next year."

So before Brandon closes this thread, I urge you to take that advice, and just try again next year.