Battlebots and FIRST

[Monkey]

I was just wondering what FIRST contestants think of Battlebots. I heard a while back that some teachers didn't like the show because it encouraged violence (or something).

[AdamT]

I don't like it. There's no veriety, all the bots use pretty much the exact same. I like the analogy that it's the WWF of robotics.

[BSMFIRST]

There's no veriety, all the bots use pretty much the exact same.

Not to be argumentitive, but isn't this an *exact* description of FIRST? I mean to a layperson, there is a heck of a lot more variety in BB than FIRST.

I don't think this is a very important aspect and I suspect it's not the real reason you dislike Battlebots. There are so many other parts that even I don't like, but variety is not a big issue yet.

Dan

[Nate Smith]

While I don't have the "BB must fall" mentality of some FIRSTers I've talked to, BB still leaves a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. The few BB shows I have seen have shown to me that in most cases, the participants seem to put as much time and effort into their machines as we do ours. The "bad taste" that I get comes from the inability to justify putting that much time and effort into a project, when I know all the while that defeat means not only a hung head at the end of a day, but a box of parts to bring home, rather than the machine I arrived with. For those who can justify this, I wish them luck in whatever event they choose to participate in.

[mnkysp6353]

Ok people i just want to come out and say it Battle Bots SUCKS!
here is my reasoning.
1. You invest all of this time and have a really big chance that your bot will become pile of bolts. Where in first you can come to a competition with a box of bolts and other teams will pitch in and help you build a bot.
2. No matter what anyone says losing in FIRST is alot better then in BB. You get to meet all of these great people. A kid that loses in BB is sad and really does not have any emotional support like that in FIRST.
3. You dont get to meet great! people like in FIRST. I would truly trade winning the nut for the pleasure of knowing all of the wonderful people on this message board.
Some people on my team want to start a BB team but i keep telling them wait till competition and you will be blown away.

[BSMFIRST]

Originally posted by mnkysp6353
Ok people i just want to come out and say it Battle Bots SUCKS!
here is my reasoning.
1. You invest all of this time and have a really big chance that your bot will become pile of bolts. Where in first you can come to a competition with a box of bolts and other teams will pitch in and help you build a bot.
2. No matter what anyone says losing in FIRST is alot better then in BB. You get to meet all of these great people. A kid that loses in BB is sad and really does not have any emotional support like that in FIRST.
3. You dont get to meet great! people like in FIRST. I would truly trade winning the nut for the pleasure of knowing all of the wonderful people on this message board.
Some people on my team want to start a BB team but i keep telling them wait till competition and you will be blown away.

You're competed in FIRST but not in BattleBots; so you're comparing your experiences to your very extensive assumptions.

I've competed in FIRST, Robotica, and BattleBots and I know you would never believe that everyone at each competition was totally helpful, respectful, and kind.

I really could go on and on about the spirit of BattleBots and Robotica--and I have in previous threads, please refer to them--but the truth is you guys will never believe me if you don't want to.

For those of you who don't like BattleBots, think the competitors are mean, etc. I encourage you to come over to the BattleBots forum. Ask absolutely any question you have about anything robot or science related and these guys will help you. If they're willing to help their soon-to-be opponents, then who wouldn't they help, right? There are 150,000 posts on it right now, you can search those too.

http://www.delphiforums.com/battlebot_tech

Dan

PS I've referred them over to this webpage many times, especially with the IFI controllers they're using now, and they love it....so they owe y'all one anyways

[Mr.B]

Like a moth to a flame…..better yet…from Don Quixote… “….march into hell for a heavenly cause”


Consider this….

FIRST and BB are different experiments, but they share some common ground. Let's try to find it.

We should be teaching students not to make assumptions.

Dan has an open mind about BB/Robotica and FIRST…This speaks volumes about Dan as a person and as a gracious professional. Dan has an open mind because he works hard to keep his mind open. Sounds simple enough right?

Not so. Keeping an open mind takes a lot of effort. Dan serves as a good example. We should all practice keeping an open analytical mind about the things we DO and THINK about.

The practice of adopting, believing in, or voicing strong opinions about ideas or methods of which we have no empirical data is frowned upon in science and engineering…

Accomplished scientists and engineers test theories and hypotheses.

When engineers think hard, develop mechanical concepts and then test them…they are defining themselves as professionals. Your family physician has taken promises to “Do no harm”…your mentoring engineer promises to.. “Make no assumptions”.

I’d like to refer everyone who bothers to read this thread to a very exciting and illuminating, engineering website.

http://www-me.mit.edu/Research/DesManResearch.htm

This site contains the course notes for the MIT Design and Manufacturing I , ME course. These notes were authored by Professor Alex Slocum…Alex runs the MIT 2.007 course…a course that was conceived by Woodie and served as the inspiration not only for FIRST, but for the process of learning engineering by DOING engineering at hundreds of universities worldwide.

If you are a teacher, then please, take the time to read the megabytes of wisdom offered in these notes! If you are a student of engineering design…then you would be unwise to miss this opportunity. If you are a practicing technical professional then you’ll enjoy Alex’s POV.

One of the key underlying points Alex makes is that good design is “Deterministic Design”. Deterministic Design is an engineering creation process founded on the scientific method. A principle stating that you cannot know something to be true unless you perform the experiment that validates the assumption. He terms these experiments BLE’s or bench level experiments…but the point remains constant, good robust designs come from ideas that have been tested …..not from assumptions.

BB and FIRST are experiments…..(refer to all of the above) If you haven’t done the experiments…you don’t have the data. Once you have the data…the conclusions you reach are all yours….

Think about this.

When your team gathers in the early weeks to develop designs for your robots…and a member of the team advances an idea or concept that is “Bleeding edge”…and is asked why the team should commit thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars to that idea….they respond “Because I think it’s the best idea”…..doesn’t that fly in the face of reason?…There is a chasm between thinking and knowing…an eternity if your thinking is too far a field of experience.

So,

I try to offer points and counter points, not to champion one experiment over the other, but rather to keep the river of ideas flowing…and to break down the “Beaver Dams” of opinion and assumption.

Good and bad are subjective concepts …but facts are worth pursuing in the quest for any objective…

Here is some data gleaned from experiments my students and I have performed.

1.) All BattleBots are not catastrophically damaged during a BattleBots event….in fact most are not catastrophically damaged during an event…and they go home happy and no worse for the experience. We are currently building our 3rd and 4th BB. Intelligent designers insure their robots have “Mouth guards, shoulder pads and Locktite on their nuts.” These machines are built to score points and to absorb mechanical energy…remember, it is often necessary to win up to 8 matches in order to claim the silver nut.
2.) All robots break during competition. That’s why we have machine shops and spare parts at the FIRST competition sites.
3.) FIRST is about Inspiration and Recognition and education, and that is a good thing. FIRST and BBIQ are different “Experiments”.
4.) BattleBots IQ is about education. BBIQ is a student centered program that recognizes the benefits of learning through active participation and recognizes the educational benefits of failure. BBIQ teachers and mentors sign a registration form attesting to the fact that the BBIQ robots were wholly designed and built by students….not by teachers or mentors…as I’ve pointed out, this does not make BBIQ better or worse than FIRST, It’s just a different experiment. It’s like shop class used to be…but these are not bird houses! (Although I love building bird houses)
5.) As an educator responsible for the emotional and social well being of the students under my charge, I see no difference in the “Crowds” at either event…I’ve seen good and bad sportsmanship all my life…the “Bell Curves” remain constant…my son and his friends are in my class, and on our BBIQ engineering team!.

We should all visit again 10 years from now…FIRST, BB and the many versions of mechanized competition that will follow will be markedly different. They will evolve to meet the needs and expectations of the participants. They will all improve, and the levels of sophistication will be extraordinary. Witness the birth of home computing in the early 80’s…I still have a Trash 80….anyone have a Sinclair?

In closing I am willing to risk the following statements in an effort to counter the deconstruction of communication I am witnessing all over the Internet….and to “Raise the bar…”

Poor spelling and deliberate vulgar language is the bad breath of the written word…we (including myself) should always endeavor to practice better textural hygiene.

I wish to support Michael and Joe in asking that all responsible adults and students endeavor to “edit” their posts and to practice the same careful discipline they employ in creating their robots, to the creation of their written thoughts and ideas…BOTH FIRST and BBIQ are founded on a deep respect for the importance of maintaining high standards employed in the communication of ideas…..

Mr.B


http://www-me.mit.edu/Research/DesManResearch.htm

[sasquatch]

This is FIRST not battlebots and in first you can not got out on the playing feild with a saw and try to distroy other robots, but on the other hand contact is allowed and i can say from experiace that having a compotion where it is allowed or even encuraged is not bad if you build a good robot you will have no problem if you have a question about the competion we had with lots of contact it is under the OCCRA post (Oakland County Competitive Robtics Association) my opinion my be one sided because we won but it is the truth in my book

Just build a good solid robot and dont worry about it

[Matt Reiland]

I like them both (first and BB) look for my robot to be entered next year under the name 'Silverado' in the Middleweight Class.
It should be fun to see what Air over Oil Intensification can do out there.

One cool thing I have been learning is ProEngineer to model the robot.

My personal views: since I like Battlebots doesn't mean I am going to go out and crash my car into someone/something. Its entertaining to me, its a game. Huge amounts of engineering go into these Bots just like first, many are now using our control system or the Isaac. Just because something is destructive doesn't mean it is automatically bad. Its been said before 'No one gets hurt at a BattleBots event'

If this years game is like football think about football players. Ever look at how they walk 5 years after they retire, leg/knee joints have been ruined, concusions, scars. How about AutoRacing there are accidents in almost every match that total out cars, people die get hurt, 'rubbing's racing'.

Just to be sure it clear our robot is not designed to hurt anyone elses, it won't be a box with 12 motor tank drive to push people around either. The task will be to get balls and goals as fast as possible

Matt

[bigqueue]

Originally posted by Monkey
I was just wondering what FIRST contestants think of Battlebots. I heard a while back that some teachers didn't like the show because it encouraged violence (or something).

When I first saw Battlebots I was not too excited about it because at forst, the bots there were all similar. Also,, I saw that most of the "killing" mechanisms looked frightening to humans, but they seemed silly when going up against a steel clad robot. (big chopping axes and swords)

My other problem with it was that you built this design marvel only to have it beat to pieces in the end. (even if you win)

But after watchjing it for a while I saw the design creativity starting to come out. Subtle changes like wedges, spinning momentum bashers, symetrical shapes that are either self-flipping or operate in any side.....I could see the engineering thinking occuring.....and lets face it, making something tough and indistructable is always one of the main engineering challenges in all designs.

So, I have grown to appreciate Battlebots....and BTW, I love Junk Yard Wars because it actually takes people through the thought process of the people and their creation.

All are a way to turn Engineering to Practical....which is one of the problems that people have appreciating Engineering.....it all seems like "book knowledge" and they just don't understand that all of the products they buy and take for granted were Engineered and created.

BTW: I also recommend the Trinity College Fire Fighting Robot Contest to any of you who might want to get into Autonomous robots. It seems simple, until you try to do it....and like First, you will NOT find a better more helpful group of people!

Here are my past fire-fighters:
http://www.tiac.net/users/bigqueue/h...e_fighter.html

Here is a link to the Fire FIghting Robot Contest:

http://www.trincoll.edu/events/robot/

Enjoy,
-Quentin

[Fury-ous_Kat]

Okay, some of you guys are making me sad.

I'm into both BattleBots AND First. FIRST is what got me into BattleBots, and I am actually working on a combat robot.

BattleBots is a sport of strategy, just like FIRST, only FIRST plays by a specific set of rules and a game play. Battlebots is more of the gladiator style game. Crush or be crushed.

The people there are so nice. Everyone has something interesting to bring to the table, even the bots that get destroyed. You will never find a better group of people to be in a pit with (well, unless they have massive work and only five minutes to do it in- then, things get a bit sticky).

I think people just need to keep an open mind. To you, it may be boring. To others, it's cool.

Like the Superbowl. I was utterly bored yesterday until U2 came on. And, I had to work through it, listening to people in the store talking about the teams and football. I don't follow it, so I was bored out of my mind.

Don't badmouth it just because you don't really like it.

Oh well-
Kat

[Joe Matt]

I watch the show a bit here and their, but it isn't great. FIRST is **much** better than BB. But you do have to give it to BB and Robotica (which is better than BB) for advertising their product. Whenever someone asks me if I'm on the robotics team, the first thing out of their mouth is, "Is it like (insert destructive robotics show here)?" I say it is much harder and more intresting because there are more people, more matches, and since you can't use weapons, uses more stratage. Although BB isn't great, Junkyard Wars is great. Imagine building something made out of junk in one day inorder to compete in something.

[Dave_222]

Im with 401

i was into battlebots, but then it just got stupid after a while, and i stoped waching.

At our space where we work, we wrote Battlebots on the door to confuse the dumb people.

[tenthirtythree]

OK, folks, time for me to put in my two cents...

I have some significant feelings about Battlebots. This discussion appears to have gotten to a point that my feelings are irrelevant, however. As a result, my feelings will remain unsaid.

In essence, when you talk about Battlebots in comparison to FIRST, you're really comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they're both arenas to compete robots, but the forum of each competition is completely different.

Nonetheless, the strategy and the mission are still the same. Entertainment and teamwork, combined with imagination, aluminum, steel, electrical components and zippy ties .

So, the competitions are different, but at the same time, they're quite similar. Kat, congratulations on your awesome idea to build a combat bot. I wish you well. Everyone else, support your fellow robot-eers!

Until next time...

~ Chip ~