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Unread 06-17-2018, 08:06 PM
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Gearing of Swerve Drive

I'm designing a swerve drive system and have gotten to the part where I must decide what gear ratio to use. I originally used a gearing system that made the drive train faster than the KoP drive train. I then considered the fact that having a drive train with more torque would give a it higher max acceleration which might allow a robot with such a drive train to be able to "juke out" other robots. I've discussed it with the design team but we haven't reached a decision. Looked online but couldn't find anything helpful. I figured I would ask here for any advice on this decision. Thanks for any help
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Unread 06-17-2018, 09:19 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

The general consensus is gear for speed, not torque, on a swerve. Within reason, of course. ~16fps seems reasonable to me, but others with more experience can chime in to confirm/deny.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 02:39 AM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

We ran a gear ratio that resulted in 16.3 feet/sec free speed. That was with a full weight robot. I wouldn't recommend going any more aggressive with gearing unless your robot weighs less. We heavily relied on SRX current limiting to prevent from browning out. Pushing force wasn't good, but speed and maneuverability were both great. In our experience, around 13 to 16 feet/sec theoretical free speed is the sweet spot for swerve gearing.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 07:20 AM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by bts14 View Post
I'm designing a swerve drive system and have gotten to the part where I must decide what gear ratio to use. I originally used a gearing system that made the drive train faster than the KoP drive train. I then considered the fact that having a drive train with more torque would give a it higher max acceleration which might allow a robot with such a drive train to be able to "juke out" other robots. I've discussed it with the design team but we haven't reached a decision. Looked online but couldn't find anything helpful. I figured I would ask here for any advice on this decision. Thanks for any help
I'm going to turn this around on you and ask what your requirements are. This will help you decide what you need, not what others have done.

1> what speed do you wish to go?
2> what size wheels do you wish to use?
3> what motor do you wish to use?
4> Do you wish to be torque limited, or traction limited?

With the above questions answered, you'll be able to answer the gearing question yourself.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 09:38 AM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

What does a typical "cycle" look like for this robot? How far does it "sprint" between field elements on a regular basis? What is the most time sensitive driving conditions it will experience (autonomous vs. tele-op)?

If you know the answers to those questions, you can get a much better idea of how you should gear your drivetrain (any drivetrain, not just swerve). Swerve will have some ramifications upon this (namely that most conventional swerve designs will be limited to 4 drive motors, rather than the 6 or 8 motor possibilities for tank drive), which can put some limitations upon how much current you draw on a per-breaker basis. Additionally, the geometry of the swerve modules may limit the ratios that are able to be packaged conveniently (namely the final stage of reduction to your wheel, where the gear/pulley/sprocket can't be larger than your wheel or else it will scrape carpet).
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Unread 06-18-2018, 10:53 AM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrishna3082 View Post
The general consensus is gear for speed, not torque, on a swerve.
I've never heard this, and I've never built a swerve robot, but can someone tell me the reason(s) for this?

Seems to me, the best speed and sprint distance to fit a particular game will be the same no matter which drive train.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 12:13 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

We ran at the following ratio:
12:100 32DP first stage reduction off 775Pro(s)
16:26 20DP second stage reduction
15:15 VEX Bevel Gear third stage.

Total reduction of 1:13.54

We used a 3" Colson wheel for our 2018 swerve.

Theoretical free speed of ~18.1fps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
If you know the answers to those questions, you can get a much better idea of how you should gear your drivetrain (any drivetrain, not just swerve). Swerve will have some ramifications upon this (namely that most conventional swerve designs will be limited to 4 drive motors, rather than the 6 or 8 motor possibilities for tank drive), which can put some limitations upon how much current you draw on a per-breaker basis. Additionally, the geometry of the swerve modules may limit the ratios that are able to be packaged conveniently (namely the final stage of reduction to your wheel, where the gear/pulley/sprocket can't be larger than your wheel or else it will scrape carpet).
While this is all true, there really is no reason that "conventional" drive trains couldn't have 6 drive motors across all the modules. We ran 2x 775pro drive motors per module for the back two while running 1x 775pro drive motor per module on the front and did not see any issues with the imbalance. And because of having 6 drive motors overall, we were able to gear for a high top speed while not losing on acceleration. We also did not run any kind of current control or voltage compensation for our 775pro drive motors, just ran them open with no issues all season.

We'll be posting a more in depth whitepaper on our swerve that we developed last offseason and ran for the 2018 season and will go more in depth on all of these kind of topics.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 12:14 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrench View Post
I've never heard this, and I've never built a swerve robot, but can someone tell me the reason(s) for this?

Seems to me, the best speed and sprint distance to fit a particular game will be the same no matter which drive train.
Short answer: if youíre in a pushing match, all youíre doing is wasting your time.

If you have a swerve drive, itís a much better play to just skip around any defenders in your way rather than to push them around. If you want to defend, swerve is not the answer.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 12:19 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

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Originally Posted by ClayTownR View Post
Short answer: if youíre in a pushing match, all youíre doing is wasting your time.

If you have a swerve drive, itís a much better play to just skip around any defenders in your way rather than to push them around. If you want to defend, swerve is not the answer.
Tell that to 16 in 2017.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 01:12 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayTownR View Post
Short answer: if youíre in a pushing match, all youíre doing is wasting your time.

If you have a swerve drive, itís a much better play to just skip around any defenders in your way rather than to push them around. If you want to defend, swerve is not the answer.
Defense != pushing. Pushing is generally not the best defense anyway. Swerves arenít the best at pushing, but that doesnít disqualify them from all sorts of defensive roles. Many swerves over the years have used their drivetrains to play defense that tank drives could not.

That said, you arenít as durable as a tank drive, so be sure your swerve can handle the loading caused by *being pushed*, as a lot of swerve defense is about putting you in between the opponent and their destination.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 04:44 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

We had more time to play defense in the Semis when we were only going for 2 rotors...

https://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2017ilch_sf1m1

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Unread 06-18-2018, 06:25 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
I'm going to turn this around on you and ask what your requirements are. This will help you decide what you need, not what others have done.

1> what speed do you wish to go?
2> what size wheels do you wish to use?
3> what motor do you wish to use?
4> Do you wish to be torque limited, or traction limited?

With the above questions answered, you'll be able to answer the gearing question yourself.
This is fantastic advice. OP, identifying YOUR requirements then designing to those is a much better method of engineering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrench View Post
I've never heard this, and I've never built a swerve robot, but can someone tell me the reason(s) for this?

Seems to me, the best speed and sprint distance to fit a particular game will be the same no matter which drive train.
We made ours fast, with the intent of using the extra degrees of freedom in the base to out maneuver our opposition, and to not lose cycle time by brawling it out. The idea of doing an 'unconventional' system only to use 'conventional' strategy didn't make much sense to us.

On to gearing:

We geared for 20fps free speed on 1.875" colson's. The wheels wore down extremely fast. We were at the edge of, or browning at out at all times. It was awesome, but a bit too fast.

Something closer to 17-18ish might have kept us free from browning, and given us better acceleration. Once we were at speed, we were pretty immune to heavy defense. We spent most of Ventura last year sprinting around defense.
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Unread 06-18-2018, 07:16 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

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Originally Posted by Mechvet View Post
This is fantastic advice. OP, identifying YOUR requirements then designing to those is a much better method of engineering.



We made ours fast, with the intent of using the extra degrees of freedom in the base to out maneuver our opposition, and to not lose cycle time by brawling it out. The idea of doing an 'unconventional' system only to use 'conventional' strategy didn't make much sense to us.

On to gearing:

We geared for 20fps free speed on 1.875" colson's. The wheels wore down extremely fast. We were at the edge of, or browning at out at all times. It was awesome, but a bit too fast.

Something closer to 17-18ish might have kept us free from browning, and given us better acceleration. Once we were at speed, we were pretty immune to heavy defense. We spent most of Ventura last year sprinting around defense.
May I ask how many/what kind of motors did you use for your driving and what the rationale was behind using the 1.625" wheels?
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Unread 06-18-2018, 07:35 PM
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Re: Gearing of Swerve Drive

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Originally Posted by Nick_Coussens View Post
May I ask how many/what kind of motors did you use for your driving and what the rationale was behind using the 1.625" wheels?
Looks like my memory isn't the best right now. We used 2.5" Colson wheels, my mistake. When I get home I'll add some images of the modules, and try to link our gearing sheet. Our team also has a "lessons learned" doc floating around somewhere, I'll see what I can dig up.
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