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Unread 10-20-2018, 02:38 AM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by MikLast View Post
Maybe im blind but I hold IoC in the same regard as the rest of the engineering awards, and dont really know many who actually see it as truly "Lesser" besides the fact that its a bit too broad. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, who sees it as an auto award? the 4 times 4513 has earned it was all for things the bot could do in teleop...
Yeah, my team has won also won the Innovation in Control award 4x, and for at least one of them it was explicitly for something that could not be used in auto.

In other news, since the number of judged team awards has changed everyone who has district point prediction models will most likely need to go update them. I guess that will go on my to do list. Lol.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 11:06 AM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

For the auto mode, if "consistent and reliable operation is weighted more heavily than the ability to score maximum points during any specific autonomously managed actions" then the judges should be watching and scouting all matches, right?

I'm not holding my breath on this, but it would be a big step in the right direction. More of than not, there is at least one award that doesn't match the on-field performance. My favorite was a team we moved to our "Do Not Pick" list after not being able to leave the corner of the field due to drive issues winning the Quality Award, which "celebrates machine robustness".
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Unread 10-20-2018, 12:10 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
FIRST isn't a for profit business they should be worrying about their mission and not who has more teams. If the Red Cross started changing policy to actively disincentives people from supporting cancer research I think a lot of people would get upset.

I believe in FIRST's mission and have for a long time, I believe a little a less in the people employed to complete the mission today.
During my first year in FRC, my parents asked a question, considering it as a team sport. They were told by a mentor that it's not a team sport; it's a business...and it is.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 12:19 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by XaulZan11 View Post
For the auto mode, if "consistent and reliable operation is weighted more heavily than the ability to score maximum points during any specific autonomously managed actions" then the judges should be watching and scouting all matches, right?

I'm not holding my breath on this, but it would be a big step in the right direction. More of than not, there is at least one award that doesn't match the on-field performance. My favorite was a team we moved to our "Do Not Pick" list after not being able to leave the corner of the field due to drive issues winning the Quality Award, which "celebrates machine robustness".
Depending on how scoring is recorded, I can create a report that shows your consistency in auto pretty easily. If auto is composed of "cross baseline", "acquire game piece", and "score game piece" and that's reflected in the scoring data per robot it would be almost trivial to build a "most capable and consistent auto" report.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 01:00 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by ctt956 View Post
During my first year in FRC, my parents asked a question, considering it as a team sport. They were told by a mentor that it's not a team sport; it's a business...and it is.
Just because that may be how it seems to operate it doesn't make it right.

FIRST is a non-profit with a mission statement. It should not care by what means teams work towards and accomplish this mission statement.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 01:26 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by bobbysq View Post
I wonder what prompted this change. Are they preemptively trying to prevent some sort of chairmans-only team from forming?
I think its FIRST's attempts to make sure their program has a balance between the focus of a team initiatives to spread STEM and cultivate STEM skills on their team. At the end of the day its FIRST's highest award and they set the criteria. As someone who has been on three teams who have received the Chairman's award at regional or district competition, I think this is a good move by FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Niklas701 View Post
Coming from a team that primarily used VEX programs to inspire the younger generations, the chairmans update is upsetting. If the mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and innovators then it shouldn’t matter the means that brings said inspiration whether it be VEX, FIRST or any other STEM program.
Even though this can be upsetting to see the shift, bear in mind these efforts aren't lost in the grand scheme of things. Inspiration is still a powerful thing for an FRC team to promote in their community. Will there be efforts that won't directly impact the immediate criteria of the Chairman's Award moving forward? Yes. Should teams keep doing them. YES!

At the end of the day it is FIRST's criteria to set for teams and it falls in line with the focuses in recent years to push their brand and unify their programs.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 01:44 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by Niklas701 View Post
Coming from a team that primarily used VEX programs to inspire the younger generations, the chairmans update is upsetting. If the mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and innovators then it shouldn’t matter the means that brings said inspiration whether it be VEX, FIRST or any other STEM program.
I mean, I doubt they'll hold VEX participation against you, more likely they just won't weigh it as heavily as participation in other FIRST programs.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 01:45 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by Niklas701 View Post
Coming from a team that primarily used VEX programs to inspire the younger generations, the chairmans update is upsetting. If the mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and innovators then it shouldn’t matter the means that brings said inspiration whether it be VEX, FIRST or any other STEM program.
On our side of the island we run the FIRST based Lego tournaments and various early scrimmages. We have saturated the local schools with FIRST products by gifting the new Lego kits and fields we purchase every year that we use as part of our Summer STEM Camp (3rd-8th grade).

Our area is extremely familiar with Lego... and inspired but....

Lego is not as inspiring to our campers in 5th to 8th grades. Most of that due to having been working with Lego in their own schools for years. I suppose we are to blame?

We use the VRC as well as PVC pipe ROV's for that age level. Our student counselors create new challenges every year with our every growing stash of VRC fiields (we run the VRC tournaments on the west side as well).

I love to see the students coming to our camps anxious to use the "new" parts. Rekindling the passion is what some of these students need. This is what we found that works best for our community.

We have been honored to win the chairman's award in the past. Will this new directive change how we work within our community?

NO WAY!!

What we are doing is changing our community in so many wonderful ways.
Modifying our working approach to meet some award category would be a detriment and not even an option.

We will continue to use and support all forms of engineering challenges for students growth and inspiration..

That is what we are here to do, isn't it?

I hope FIRST isn't losing their focus on inspiration for market saturation.....
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Unread 10-20-2018, 01:58 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
FIRST isn't a for profit business they should be worrying about their mission and not who has more teams. If the Red Cross started changing policy to actively disincentives people from supporting cancer research I think a lot of people would get upset.

I believe in FIRST's mission and have for a long time, I believe a little a less in the people employed to complete the mission today.
This echoes my feelings. There was a time when I would've tirelessly defended FIRST, but that time has passed.

The staff administering each of the programs is, in my experience, really invested in delivering a high-quality, effective experience for students. The upper management of the organization, however, seems far more interested in building a brand and leveraging it for corporate interests than in helping students learn how they can solve critically important problems we all face.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 03:30 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by Madison View Post
(...) The upper management of the organization, however, seems far more interested in building a brand and leveraging it for corporate interests than in helping students learn how they can solve critically important problems we all face.
I think that if someone made a cynical dictionary, this would be the definition for the term "non-profit organization". It can't really be helped too much, that just seems to be the way things work.
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Unread 10-21-2018, 08:18 AM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by Madison View Post
This echoes my feelings. There was a time when I would've tirelessly defended FIRST, but that time has passed.

The staff administering each of the programs is, in my experience, really invested in delivering a high-quality, effective experience for students. The upper management of the organization, however, seems far more interested in building a brand and leveraging it for corporate interests than in helping students learn how they can solve critically important problems we all face.
I stopped caring about FIRST corporate when they told me if I didn't support FTC I wasn't a FIRSTer.

FRC staff are wonderful but FIRST corporate can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned. FIRST corporate is only concerned about FIRST corporate. This Chairman's change is just more proof.
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Unread 10-21-2018, 10:44 AM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

So normally I'm pretty cynical about HQ and their decisions. I really do distrust the operation at that level because the people in charge seem very out of touch with the world we live in today.

That being said, I'm curious what they were thinking when they changed the wording here to be "emphasis on promoting science and technology through FIRST programs".

Is this really the cash-grab that it appears to be and FIRST wants us to promote all things FIRST when FIRST has some of the most expensive and unsustainable STEM programs around? Or could it be a more broad definition of using FIRST programs to promote STEM as but one example among many?

It does strike me, reading through the Chairman's award criteria, that even MORE emphasis has been placed on starting FIRST teams and that makes me a sad panda. It needs to be placed on sustaining teams, not just starting them. This crap is expensive to run, expensive to start, eats through resources, and while it's awesome and rewarding to students in ways I can't always fathom and comprehend, I think we gotta broaden STEM tent to include more than just the FIRST progression of programs if we truly want to see meaningful societal change that by their own wording: "It [the Chairman's award] was created to keep the central focus of FIRST Robotics Competition on the ultimate goal of transforming the culture in ways that will inspire greater levels of respect and honor for science and technology, as well as encouraging more of today’s youth to become science and technology leaders. "

I would have preferred to see FIRST address the ongoing sustainability issues that it faces but I'm not sure that is happening. I guess I'm a sad panda.
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Unread 10-21-2018, 01:19 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
...

I believe in FIRST's mission and have for a long time, I believe a little a less in the people employed to complete the mission today.
Could this change have something to do with the newly hired Vice President of Programs?
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Unread 10-21-2018, 02:16 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by Niklas701 View Post
Coming from a team that primarily used VEX programs to inspire the younger generations, the chairmans update is upsetting. If the mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and innovators then it shouldn’t matter the means that brings said inspiration whether it be VEX, FIRST or any other STEM program.
Yep. I notice that, too. Nice job of coopertition, eh? It's almost like HQ doesn't have faith that their other programs can stand on their own.

Jason
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Unread 10-21-2018, 04:16 PM
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Re: [FRC Blog] 2019 Awards Update

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Originally Posted by dtengineering View Post
Yep. I notice that, too. Nice job of coopertition, eh? It's almost like HQ doesn't have faith that their other programs can stand on their own.
Pretty interesting observation, made me want to find a video I saw.

VEX has this concept called the "STEM Hall of Fame" and they inducted Woodie into it in 2017, and had no issue discussing FIRST or any of FIRST's programs. Quite the difference in treatment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDtl1KRHGo
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