FIRST Nationals on "Regular" TV

[Joe Matt]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
Exactly. Thank you Mr. Lavery.

But that makes no sense Dave. I admire you for your skills, but what happened to changing the world? What about opening up and helping start new teams?

Why does the Olympics of smarts only have to apply to a few A+ Geeks out there?

I almost find it degrading what you said Dave.

I agree that only the smart people will survive, but it should be open to all and have the poor skills people fall out and help the smart.

[Adam Y.]

All I have to say is the robot Shows don't do well....Period. Keep it on Nasa and maybe make more advertising videos for schools in the off season. Remember most places it's still not "cool" to learn anything, or be a geek. Nothing is wrong with being a geek!!!!!

The robot shows were really never that educational. They were just a twisted and warped comedy show. Though that doesn't mean that educational shows bomb and fail miserably on television. Junkyard Wars is in it's eleventh season which is quite good for any television show.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally posted by JosephM
it should be open to all

^Yup^
How are we going to change the culture if FIRST is only open to an elite few?? Puting it on TV would benefit FIRST because it would expose it to more people which is what needs to be done right now. FIRST should be open to anyone who has an interest in Science and Technology and a good work ethic. Why limit it to the Elite?? That's my question

[Ken Leung]

Hope you had a good night sleep the night before ;-), because if you didn’t, chances are you won’t make it to the end of this post.


I've always believed that being who I was will not limit me to who I will be. That's what keeps me trying to learn more and become a better person. Otherwise I would've settled being someone ordinary and not care about anything around my life.

Looking back at 5 years ago, I would have NEVER qualified to be someone in the "special group of students that embody the intellectual capital that will define the future of this country"... Even now I don't think I do. I didn't even want to join the robotics team because I never had the chance to understand the program and what it’s trying to do. I am just an ordinary guy trying hard to do what I think is right and worth while, and I am glad I had the opportunity to slip through the crack and some how be part of a group of bright students that totally deserve to do FIRST, or so FIRST believed.

But, considering students like me in high school who got just as much impact from FIRST as another other bright students, I don't think FIRST did anything wrong to let them participate in the program. I would even go as far as to say, FIRST made a lot of impact because they didn't limit the "quality" of its participants.

But... I am not here to argue what's right and what's wrong. I can only tell people what I believe is the best way to look at this.


People learn at a different pace, and grow up to be different people depending what they've experienced in their lives. Everyone is born to learn whatever is taught to them, and the environment around them shapes them into who they are. Despite some physical limitations, most people have the chance to be successful, given the right opportunities.

There is no real way to judge the effectiveness of FIRST on the students when they haven't even experienced it before. Sometimes it can be really effective on some very bright students in science classes, sometimes it can't. There are many factors, including the level of challenge in the robotics competition, the team the student is going to join, the amount of exposure they got at the competition, etc. Just because someone is bright doesn't mean FIRST is perfect for them, and vice-versa. Maybe there are other programs that can better challenge those bright individuals to become more interested in science/technology, maybe FIRST is the best thing for them. Lots and lots of maybes.

The fact is, we don't know how much impact it will have on the students until they give FIRST a try, and FIRST give them a try.


The core of the issue is, is there really a need to limit who may or may not participant in FIRST?

Well, you have to consider the factors that limit the amount of participants in FIRST Robotics Competition, like the capacities of regionals, and the realistic workload for FIRST, and the amount of resources this country have for FIRST teams... IF there isn't enough room for everybody, how do you decide who can participate and who can't? If there isn't enough money to go around, how do you decide who gets the money?

Then there are things mentioned in an early post in this thread, "Will making FIRST appealing to the masses lower the quality of the competition?" What is the quality of the competition? Is it the amount of excitements in the game? Is it the TV ratings? Is it the level of challenges in the competition? Is it how cool the robots look and perform?


There are too many things to consider, because FRC is a lot of different things mixed together in a big giant salad bowl ;-). There is the part about inspiration and how winning isn't important, and there is the competition part where the students should try their hardest to win, mix that in with how much fun it is to watch the game, and how much go on outside the 6 weeks and competition, you got a salad more complicated then the best of Chefs on the Food network can create. Maybe, the program is still effective even if the game is simpler and more suitable for TV because of what goes on outside the competitions and 6 weeks. Maybe, the game has to be challenging and confusing enough to inspire the students, but cannot be aired on TV because it's not appealing to the audience. Maybe there is no need for TV exposure because FIRST is big enough to draw enough participants. Maybe there is really a need for TV exposure to get more companies/industry to sponsor FIRST. Again, lots and lots of maybes.


In the end, we are just trying to do the best we can, consider as many angle as possible, and make the best decision and live with it. That's what being a grown up is all about. There is no one to tell you what's right and wrong, and you can only do the best you can, and be satisfied.


IMHO, I believe what matters the most is the impact on students. If there is no quality in the effectiveness of the program, there is no reason for it to exist. I believe it is more worthwhile to make a huge impact on a smaller group of students, then to make little impact on everyone students out there. Of course, we WANT to make a huge impact on EVERYONE students out there, but that is impossible right now.

Having said that, I still don't believe there is a need to limit participation level by the level of intelligence of the students. The limit should be based on the realistic amount of events FIRST can hold (determine by the budget, scheduling, and how many teams can play in a match), the amount of resources available to the teams (determined by how complex a machine they have to build), how many students a team can have (determined by how many people can work on the robot and other team activities base on the game), PROVIDING the game will have the MAXIMUM impact on the students and FIRST participants.

But that’s just my opinion.

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally posted by JosephM
But that makes no sense Dave. I admire you for your skills, but what happened to changing the world? What about opening up and helping start new teams?

I find it rather humorous that so many people chant that FIRST is going to "change the culture."

When at the same time, the same people argue that FIRST should be on TV. - The same TV that is a vessel for the sports and violence culture they so dislike and are claiming to try and change.

I honestly don't get it: You want to change the culture by altering FIRST to become more like the culture you are trying to change?

Originally posted by Ryan Dognaux
How are we going to change the culture if FIRST is only open to an elite few?? Puting it on TV would benefit FIRST because it would expose it to more people which is what needs to be done right now. FIRST should be open to anyone who has an interest in Science and Technology and a good work ethic. Why limit it to the Elite?? That's my question

Please tell me again, why FIRST has to be on television.

Please, tell me again, why does FIRST need more teams?

What's more important, quality, or quantity?

I choose the former.

I agree 100% with Mr. Lavery.

And this is probably worthy of a new thread. I'll write an essay and start one up in a day or two.

[Joe Matt]

At no point have I said that FIRST should be more like the culture it wants to change, nor have I supported it's use on national TV for entertainment. I think that showing the benifits using 20/20 or Dateline would be better than having Nats on ABC.

[T967]

I hope no one in this thread gets the idea that they are "elite" or more "intellectual" than anyone else because they are in FIRST.

The wise are those who know they can't do or know everything. I like what the dude with the red spiky hair said. He types alot but he has good points.

I have already stated my opinion on the TV thing. I want to hear more about that. Please, someone continue.

[Dan Richardson]

( ERghh I'm reposting cuz I spent about an hour writing a massive rant, then the power went out.. so here is a shortened more revised version and between the power outtage and reading the elitism posts I'm about to have an anurism )

So you want to be elite? Who choses who the elite are? Is it you ? Is it Dean ? What if you are not deemed intelligent enough for the Elite class? Will you walk off with no argument for it was your idea?

It is true Varsity sports makes cuts, but it is also true that if you still wish to play any sport you can find teams to play on that are more on your skill level, the same can not be said for FIRST. FIRST is going to keep growing because there is a desire by most for it to grow, No one ever gets a chairmans for " sitting around wishing it were just the elite "

If you don't believe me, just go read the recently posted speech by Dean Kamen ( in 1998 ) he never once mentions wanting to restricting to kids with the highest IQ, infact almost through out the entire thing he talks about attempting to get inner city kids who never had a chance to wittness technology at its best, for them to get them involved.

Excerpt from Deans Speach
You don’t have to go into these schools to see whether they’ve got a hot glue gun and rubber bands. You can bring them out to your factories, let them see what its like to use a 5 axis CNC laser cutting [machine], a wire EDM machine. Let them see what real analytic capability can do when you’re trying to solve a design problem.

You are here, as the name says, FIRST, for INSPIRATION and RECOGNITION of science and technology. We’re not asking you to be boastful. We’re not asking you to walk around and say how great you are. You don't have to. Just go about your business, but let the kids in. Let them see it, let them understand what power there is in knowledge, what power there is when you’re creative.

And maybe they’ll still not know the name of the guy that invented the CAT scanner, or the guy that did something that is much more important to their standard of living than a guy that can kick a ball 63 yards. But they’ll know something more important than that. They’ll know that they can do this. They’ve seen real people do it. They’ve seen scientists aren’t all old, antisocial, white, males, with German accents, with _____. But they’ll see scientist, engineers, technicians as people that are enthusiastic about what they do.

Now thats what FIRST is, and I love it the way it is, if I hadn't, I would not have quit all sports this year ( and that was a big deal, as I was projected to be get a scholarship to a competive d2 college this year for football ) Elitism would just go completely away from any sort of effort to reach that goal. I know if it were elitist I surely would not be involved, nor would I becoming an engineer later on in life.

FIRST will not change the entire culture, but what is wrong with trying to. If you change a handful of people, wasn't it worth it?

I believe if someone has a desire to learn let them in, let them learn, regardless of their intelligence level.

If you have a problem with people who don't want to learn just get involved so they can put it on their college app, and do no work at meetings and they are just a distraction to the team.. by all means, talk to them about their attitude, just like any normal coach would do, and then if they continue to have problems ask them to ship up or ship out.

But if anyone has a general desire to learn or work let them stay regardless if they are ( in internet lingo) " N00b or Leet " .. ( 31337 )

My rant is done.. because it is the 2nd time i've written it

Dan

[MattK]

I hope FIRST is listing to all this

[Adam Y.]

FOX family and other divisions of FOX (see above)

Actually FOX family hasn't been around since a while. It is now ABC Family lol.

[ChrisH]

I agree with Dave Lavery's post.

FIRST in it's final, culture dominating form will be composed of elite students. BUT some of those students will be elite academians who can reseach problems the team wants solved for next year. Others will be elite engineers who actually build what the academians come up with. Still other will be elite machinists who play a CNC mill the way Hiefitz played a violin. Still others will be elite marketers who can figure out just who on another team is making the strategic decisions and market the team to that group or individual. Still others will be elite .... but I think by now you get the point. They all will contribute to the team goals using the unique talents God has given them.

This elite cadre will not be determined by interview or application. They will be determined by their performance at in-school mini-competitions that have been taking place through-out their educational experience.

That is the ultimate destination. But we're not there yet.

When I was in high school, (back when the dinosaurs roamed) we had to do this thing called "the six minute run" in Physical Education. It was some sort of standard test the state required. But, as I was to find out later, everyone who did more than a mile was asked to try out for the cross-country team. Not everybody did, and not all of those who tried out made it. But everybody in the school was exposed to distance running at least once.

Right now, we cannot say that every student is exposed to science and engineering. I could take you to areas of Los Angeles where many people have never knowingly met an engineer, let alone know in any real way what one does. But from seeing some of the cars and bikes the people who live there come up with, I'll bet that more than a few of them have great potential. They just don't know it.

There are few people who are really good at hitting rocks with sticks that don't know it in this country. But I've seen many who would make pretty good engineers that never thought about becoming one. Because there was no way for them to realize that they were better than other people at being one.

That is part of what FIRST is about. Helping those that excell in the skills required for science and engineering realize that they are good at it, and that it is important, and that by doing what they are good at and enjoy they can change the world.

Some schools already have the problem that they have more students that will benefit from FIRST than they can support. Other schools do not. Each must find a way to do the best for their students. One solution will not work for all.

At this point I don't think teams should be too restrictive about who is on them. But in 10 or 20 years, when you who are students now are complaining to your child's high school principal that the Robot team didn't do well in the citywide competition, and schools are moaning about having dismantled their shops years before, it may be a different story.

[Koko Ed]

Originally posted by ChrisH
I agree with Dave Lavery's post.

FIRST in it's final, culture dominating form will be composed of elite students. BUT some of those students will be elite academians who can reseach problems the team wants solved for next year. Others will be elite engineers who actually build what the academians come up with. Still other will be elite machinists who play a CNC mill the way Hiefitz played a violin. Still others will be elite marketers who can figure out just who on another team is making the strategic decisions and market the team to that group or individual. Still others will be elite .... but I think by now you get the point. They all will contribute to the team goals using the unique talents God has given them.

This elite cadre will not be determined by interview or application. They will be determined by their performance at in-school mini-competitions that have been taking place through-out their educational experience.

That is the ultimate destination. But we're not there yet.

When I was in high school, (back when the dinosaurs roamed) we had to do this thing called "the six minute run" in Physical Education. It was some sort of standard test the state required. But, as I was to find out later, everyone who did more than a mile was asked to try out for the cross-country team. Not everybody did, and not all of those who tried out made it. But everybody in the school was exposed to distance running at least once.

Right now, we cannot say that every student is exposed to science and engineering. I could take you to areas of Los Angeles where many people have never knowingly met an engineer, let alone know in any real way what one does. But from seeing some of the cars and bikes the people who live there come up with, I'll bet that more than a few of them have great potential. They just don't know it.

There are few people who are really good at hitting rocks with sticks that don't know it in this country. But I've seen many who would make pretty good engineers that never thought about becoming one. Because there was no way for them to realize that they were better than other people at being one.

That is part of what FIRST is about. Helping those that excell in the skills required for science and engineering realize that they are good at it, and that it is important, and that by doing what they are good at and enjoy they can change the world.

Some schools already have the problem that they have more students that will benefit from FIRST than they can support. Other schools do not. Each must find a way to do the best for their students. One solution will not work for all.

At this point I don't think teams should be too restrictive about who is on them. But in 10 or 20 years, when you who are students now are complaining to your child's high school principal that the Robot team didn't do well in the citywide competition, and schools are moaning about having dismantled their shops years before, it may be a different story.

I truly hope that FIRST does not get that way because the day they do I will walk away from it and never look back.

[Joe Matt]

Originally posted by Koko Ed
I truly hope that FIRST does not get that way because the day they do I will walk away from it and never look back.

I agree totally. Same with Ken. I would never be in FIRST now because I wouldn't match the elietness that they want. Also, I will drop FIRST if they go the way Dave explained. That's the way Battlebots fell, and it will be FIRST's demise too.

[Ken Leung]

Originally posted by Koko Ed
I truly hope that FIRST does not get that way because the day they do I will walk away from it and never look back.

Looking at how much the program cost teams to build a robot and compete at competitions, and the format of the competition, EVEN if there is a team in every high school around the country, there won't be enough room on the team to allow EVERYONE in the school to join the team. It's kinda like we would love to have 1 teacher per students, but we will never have enough teachers or money to do that.

Maybe it’s something about what we saw FIRST done in students that gave us hope that maybe there is for education after all. That's it, isn't it? When we see students who never did well in school suddenly take an interest in science and engineering, and started to get A's at their classes, we can't help but feel, "Maybe this is a better form of education than we're used to."

Only, it's not that simple. We cannot expect programs like FIRST to fix everything there is in the current education system. They can HELP inspire kids into science, technology, and engineering, but they cannot replace the education system to teach kids to be better people... Not at the cost of the competition right now.

You see, a feeling I get about FIRST after many years in it is that some how some of the people don't expect students to participate in the competition to get inspired. They think as long as the students get to go watch the competitions, they will get inspired/interested to go into science/technology/engineering majors. Kinda like thinking that a TV show, or a movie, or a demonstration can be shown to thousands and thousands of people and benefit them all. Of course, not everyone thinks that, and the groups I've been with think opposite of that and believe students participation in the competition is crucial to being able to inspire and educate them about being better people.

I am not sure if there is ANYONE who actually thinks what I said above about students participation isn't needed for inspiration, but some how I get the feeling that some do think that after hearing what was said among FIRSTers. But it’s certainly not what I believe in. Some say FIRST isn't about education at all... Well, I guess it was silly of me that I actually kinda did, and have been trying to search for a better education system.

You see, I am disgusted by how some of the existing education systems out that did horribly to teach kids to become better people. I've suffered in Hong Kong education for 11 years, and zero minute of have those years I’ve learned anything I care about. I was lectured at in different facts, and told to memorize stuff that's supposed to be useful but never have a chance to use in real life other thank home work assignments, and I didn't care any bit about anything when I left Hong Kong. The American education system is way better than what I had in Hong Kong, but again, I was told I have to study for SATs, and take AP tests, and get lectured at things and do homework assignments even though I never use those things in my real life here in the US as well.

I asked a bunch of people, and they all say they don't use most of what they learn in high school after they grew up and started working. That's not saying they didn't use the English they were taught, or basic math, but that's pretty much about it, the basic. Instead of teaching problem solving skills, knowing the schools will never teach enough to the students about life or being a human being, all I see is the schools deciding what is best for students and funneling all the knowledge they think is best suited for students, and demand each of them to get all the questions right in tests.

But FIRST isn't like that. In FIRST, you have the overall problem of the competition, and you do EVERYTHING humanly possibly to try to build a good machine to do well in the game. FIRST doesn't tell the students what they HAVE TO LEARN, and instead sit aside and let the students learn to solve problems, and learn to seek help. And that, I believe, is a better form of education.

But maybe it's silly of us to think FIRST as a new approach to education. But hey, FIRST is only a technology to get students inspired for science, technology, and engineering... Maybe FIRST is too costly for every student to participate… Maybe there just isn’t enough room for everyone if it takes so much to inspire so little… If we really care about changing the education system, maybe we gotta look over FIRST into more areas of effective education programs, or maybe start some ourselves. That would be nice, wouldn’t it ;-), to have an effective education system for all students and help them to be better human beings?

And that continue to be my wishes.

[Adam Y.]

But FIRST isn't like that. In FIRST, you have the overall problem of the competition, and you do EVERYTHING humanly possibly to try to build a good machine to do well in the game. FIRST doesn't tell the students what they HAVE TO LEARN, and instead sit aside and let the students learn to solve problems, and learn to seek help. And that, I believe, is a better form of education.

A lot of stuff I have learned in school is only meant to inspire you want to do when you grow up. I certainly hope so or else there will certainly be problems. I really hope I am not going to use any of my forensic knowledge I learned in school. My school has electives which are really only meant to show you what you can do or you can take a bunch of specifically related electives and get a sequence in them. There are certainly enough courses to take depending on your interests. Also a lot of the stuff you learn in math and science will generally carry over as I have discovered. I was annoying my friends because every time I learned a new formula in physics all I did was pick up my robotics book and there it was. Though I seriously doubt I will have any use for chemistry or even biology for that matter. In pre-calculus my math teacher would always give us math problems that would at least relate to something involving the real world. Of course it also helped that he was a former engineer and he talked about it to us.

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I agree totally. Same with Ken. I would never be in FIRST now because I wouldn't match the elietness that they want. Also, I will drop FIRST if they go the way Dave explained. That's the way Battlebots fell, and it will be FIRST's demise too.
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Errr Battlebots never fell because it was too elite. Anyone could have participated in it no matter how much of a background you had and usually everyone did.