2004 Championship Eligibility Criteria!!!

[Jeremy Roberts]

Yes, second year teams are in Tier 1, but not, as you say, screwed. Just like every other team out there you will also have the chance to compete in the CE once, or maybe even twice every four years. This I think is very reasonable.

FIRST never said the transition from the old system to the new system would be flawless and I don't think anyone could expect it to be perfect for all teams.

Its been said near a million times already, but hopefully this is the last. Lets just stop complaining and enjoy what is great about the FIRST competition and what brought us all here in the first place.

[Wetzel]

At our team meeting tonight, I realized something that had not been brought up here yet.

What is the biggest award that FIRST gives out?

Chairmans Award.
Duh, we all know that. But how many acutally *DO* that?
From what I've heard, its only about 1/3 of the teams that enter.

It its so prestigous, why don't more people submit a entry?

Mayhaps FIRST has seen this, and is not happy.
Mayhaps FIRST looked for a solution, and found one.

If you want to go, win Chairmans or Engineering Inspiration.
You can't win if you don't try.


Wetzel

[Michael R. Lee]

Well if you've ever read what the teams write up (those that win) and think about what they did and what you do, many teams don't think they'll even have a shot at winning. Thus they don't bother try the next year. My old team, well S.P.A.M., we have a tradition of always doing it no matter what. Cause, well hey you never know? Its like matches, sometimes its just luck on who you get paired up with, etc....

Wetzel, you maybe right there....

[Aidan F. Browne]

I have strived to bite my tongue and stay out of this thread... but now I'm riled up... and here I go:

How does any one of us have the audacity to tell FIRST what they should do?

FIRST is probably the greatest organizational feat ever accomplished in the history of high school organizations. Never has anyone attempted to bring 10,000 high school students together in one place to celebrate. And done it 12 years in a row -- successfully. And done it for the sake of doing it -- not to make money out of it.

Why can't everyone honor them for their ability to do so? Why can't everyone thank them for caring to strive to find ways to make it possible to do so?

Why can't everyone realize that the only single thing that the FIRST Executive Board should do is to continue the absolutely amazing job that they have always done?

They asked our opinions, they listened to them, them evaluated them, they weighed them with all the issues, and they came up with the fairest system that they could.

Are we that spoiled? Are we that unappreciative? Are we that audacious to think that we are better than some of the best minds in the country who come together on a volunteer basis because they care about this organization with all their hearts... and then some?

Do we all know what gracious means?

I know one thing for sure. The FIRST Executive Board has done an amazing job coming up with a system. Whether I as an individual like it or dislike it is immaterial. They did a great job.

Thank you FIRST -- thank you, thank you, thank you -- I can't say that enough. We can't say that enough.... Its too bad that more of us don't try.

I have no problem with people discussing their opionions. I have no problem with people making suggestions. I cringe when I hear a bunch of unappreciative whiners telling FIRST what they should do.

I'll shut up now... well, after one more thing:

FIRST Executive Board -- Thank you for continuing to do an amazing job!!!!!!!! You guys ROCK!!! Sorry we don't appreciate your hard labors as much as we should.

[David Kelly]

Thanks Aidan. I'm glad there more out there other than myself that have that much passion for FIRST.


I like this quote that Dave Lavery once said, "You can either spend lots of energy complaining about it and whining or you can try to figure out how to make a positive experience from the whole thing."


People, lets give this system a chance to show its colors then we can evaluate it later on. I'm still not sure on how this system will affect our team, but I know that it's going to make us want to work harder this upcoming season.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally posted by Aidan F. Browne
Why can't everyone honor them for their ability to do so? Why can't everyone thank them for caring to strive to find ways to make it possible to do so?

Thank you for saying what I couldn't.

[ChrisH]

Originally posted by Wetzel
At our team meeting tonight, I realized something that had not been brought up here yet.

What is the biggest award that FIRST gives out?

Chairmans Award.
Duh, we all know that. But how many acutally *DO* that?
From what I've heard, its only about 1/3 of the teams that enter.

It its so prestigous, why don't more people submit a entry?

Mayhaps FIRST has seen this, and is not happy.
Mayhaps FIRST looked for a solution, and found one.

If you want to go, win Chairmans or Engineering Inspiration.
You can't win if you don't try.


Wetzel

FIRST has seen this and they are not particularly happy about it. But beating on people is not the way to get them to do things that must be done with enthusiasm. I know that they have had discussions on this subject because I have been a part of them. Whether those discussion produce any fruit remains to be seen.


ChrisH

[Andrew]

If you haven't already seen, the list of teams in the tiers are out...

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/tierlist.htm

FIRST has done an outstanding job with this system. It looks like it may actually function for five-six years without major over-haul.

FIRST has also done an excellent job with sharing information and getting this to us in a timely manner. Now that we know the system, we can plan around it.

Something which has not been picked up on this discussion is that the new system will give everyone a chance to go to championships if space allows. In the past two years, if you were odd (2002) or even (2001), you could not get onto the wait list. In the waning days of each year, FIRST threw the list open. As I read the new system, the wait list can potentially contain every registered team.

BTW, I just received this from FIRST. We're a Tier 2 team, so this answers how they will process additional tiers.

Hello Teams.

Championship registration opens at noon Eastern time and your team is NOT
currently eligible to register. If you are interested in attending the
Championship, please verify the accuracy of your team eligibility
information on-line in the Team Information Management System. On November
5, 2003, FIRST plans to open up registration to an additional Tier, and
additional teams will be allowed access to the available openings. For
more information, please see: http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/cmp_elig.htm

[Joe Matt]

Originally posted by Aidan F. Browne
How does any one of us have the audacity to tell FIRST what they should do?

Because my team pays $10,00 to enter, I dedicate my self for six weeks plus missing school for around a week to the competitions. They aren't giving us a free product here, we are paying to participate and for them to create rules to keep order. If we don't like it then we can complain. Simple as that. If I go and buy a product and don't like what they offer, I can take my business else where, Battlebots, Robot Wars, etc.

People need to forget that FIRST isn't this 'holyer than thou' organization that we can't touch. If it wasn't for us, there would be no FIRST, so why can't we give our opinions about what FIRST does?

[Mike Norton]

Why do teams in 1992 have a free ride?

Why aren't teams that have ten years or more?

I would think that would be worth something 10+ years of keeping a team together keeping the money coming in so you can compete every year. Why not give points for that. Most company reward people for their loyalty. Why not FIRST.

If it wasn't for the old teams bringing in the new team and sticking around from year to year there wouldn't be a FIRST.


Maybe there should of been something in the rules saying if you bring in so many new teams you get points. I think this would be better than if you were here in 1992 you get to go to the Nationals.

If FIRST want to make some good rules that will bring in more teams this one should. every team you bring in is worth 1 point. you get 5 teams in you get to go to the nationals. Is it not worth it for FIRST to do that then tell someone they can go because you were here in 1992?

[sanddrag]

I encourage everyone to read the posts by Jason Morella, Ken L, and Andy B, in this thread.

[Aidan F. Browne]

Originally posted by JosephM
... can complain. Simple as that. If I go and buy a product and don't like what they offer, I can take my business else where, Battlebots, Robot Wars, etc.

I have two famous gardening quotes for you:

"You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses."

and

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally posted by JosephM
Because my team pays $10,00 to enter, I dedicate my self for six weeks plus missing school for around a week to the competitions. They aren't giving us a free product here, we are paying to participate and for them to create rules to keep order. If I go and buy a product and don't like what they offer, I can take my business else where, Battlebots, Robot Wars, etc.

People need to forget that FIRST isn't this 'holyer than thou' organization that we can't touch. If it wasn't for us, there would be no FIRST, so why can't we give our opinions about what FIRST does?

I talk to people in this program that feel family and job strain, that come to FIRST meetings disregard everything else, and I talk to people where FIRST is the best thing in their life.

It's been said on here repeatedly that FIRST makes life more difficult - sure, but people wouldn't do it if it wasn't enjoyable.

So, seeing as how you are 1. missing school, 2. giving up all your team's money, and 3. 'dedicating yourself' (whatever consists of that in your definition, everybody is different), you seem to be sticking in this for the long haul. Thereby, it is assumed that you are enjoying this program.

But your team doesn't have to pay the money, you don't have to miss school, and you don't have to waste precious time on a competition. Nobody asked you to. You, and the thousands of other FIRSTers, do it because it inspires you.

You are more than welcome to post your opinions about FIRST. Nobody said you couldn't, technically. But you must also understand that other people are just as liable to post what they think about you... because they also pay their money and take their chance on this organization.

You are not a special exception on CD. Post whatever you like; nobody is standing over your shoulder and telling you not to. But remember this:

Originally posted by JosephM
If it wasn't for us, there would be no FIRST, so why can't we give our opinions about what FIRST does?

If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be having much of a FIRST, either.

[Wetzel]

Originally posted by ChrisH
FIRST has seen this and they are not particularly happy about it. But beating on people is not the way to get them to do things that must be done with enthusiasm. I know that they have had discussions on this subject because I have been a part of them. Whether those discussion produce any fruit remains to be seen.

I don't see it as beating on people, I see it as a subtle dangling carrot.

Originally posted by Aidan F. Browne
I have two famous gardening quotes for you:

"You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses."

and

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."

As a gardener, I can always get thorn less roses.

and

I can always put lots of effort into making my grass greener. Fertilizing, watering, mowing in a proper manner(there are better ways to mow then others)

You get out what you put in. Posts that just say 'We got screwed outta our free ride this year' are not productive or helpful. Those that have some thought behind them can be valuable. By everyone contributing their thoughts and opinions, they can be gleaned for that 1 bit here and 1 bit there.

Business do this, and I know in particular the EMS system calls this Quality Improvement. Its a constant process of self-review with the intent to identify parts of the system that can be improved. Once a problem/weak spot has been identified, a plan is developed and then implemented to improve it.

Compare this to a group sitting around in a bar talking about the latest trade the Redskins made. Everyone will have an opinion, and they all will discuss it back and forth. You could make the very valid point that it dosn't matter that they think it was a horrible trade, that they should just accept it and move to something else, but that is their passion.

FIRST is the passion of the people here on Chief Delphi. Consider us like passionate sports fans, we will discuss any decision that FIRST makes. The difference is here, FIRST(or representatives of) will read our opinions and they might actually make a difference.


Wetzel

[Elgin Clock]

Originally posted by Andrew
If you haven't already seen, the list of teams in the tiers are out...

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/tierlist.htm

As long as I am reading this right, then 163 teams are already qualified to go.

But, according to THIS PAGE at the bottom, there is 210 spots to fill.

Now take 210 and subtract 163 and you get 47 teams left that are not already prequalified.

Going by this years qualifiers and 26 regional events
"Regional Chairman's Award winners (1 per Regional) (26 total)
Regional Engineering Inspiration Award winners (1 per Regional) (26 total)
Regional Rookie All-Star Award winners (1 per Regional) (26 total)
Regional Champions (3 per Regional) " (78 total)

Then we have
163 (teams already qualified)
26 (Chairmans 2004)
26 (Engineering Inspiration Award winners 2004)
26 (Rookie all stars 2004)
+ 78 (Regional Champions 2004)
--------------
319 teams going to the Championship Event this year.


(Why does it say that the limit is 210 then??)
And what is the real limit on teams attending the championships this year??

Remember, my calculations are taking into account that all winners of awards this year will be teams other than the ones that are pre qualified, and not other award winners that will qualify either!!

It's still going to be a big event no matter what!!!