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Unread 12-10-2003, 22:06
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No usually a lot of CPU power required is a bad sign... but the point it is the software isn't being built for Joe Bob, it targets studios. And it's nice to see what they use.

As for the UI, compared to Cinelerra's Premire's is quite pretty. Lol. But it's still good quality at what it does if you need high-end. If you don't then there's really no need for it and it's possible that you can get away with the built in video editor. (If your tool has one rather...)
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Unread 13-10-2003, 19:17
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eh- if cinelerra had the same skin as premiere they would look pretty similar. btw- do you know where to find some cinelerra skins? It is supposed to be skinable..
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I don't think she could have gotten his whole finger in one bite though, that part was kinda far fetched...
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Unread 13-10-2003, 21:52
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It is, but I think no one's deved one up for it yet...
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Unread 31-10-2003, 00:24
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OK, SOOOOO.... Is my team the only one that uses 3DStudio Max (like it states in the rules)

I'm not against using other stuff, but you guys are talking about using them in the competition. Not sure thats what Autodesk requires.

As far as editing, I want you guys to check out AVID FreeDV or somthing like that. I dont know the limits of it, but its a scaled down version of Express DV. Almost every post production facility has AVID systems. Corporations, TV Networks (Like NBC) have tons of them. If you get an introduction to the software, then there are more opportunities out there for you.

MAYA is the best 3D software out there. If you dont know that then you need to look at the highend pros at places like pixar. But to keep the playing field even for the competition, you need to use 3D Studio. If you have a problem with that, then go knock on Alias's Door and get them to donate MAYA and provide all the resources and dedication the Autodesk provides. Then we can all use it. Before anyone goes and dis's Autodesk, they are commited to making this a great experience for you. There are huge logistics that are involved and they arte trying to make it all work.

In the professional work I use Lightwave, because based on Budget and time, and the fact that I started using it 10yrs ago, its the best product for my clients needs. When they need higher end stuff I'll use Maya.

BTW: Things are free for a reason, its not becuse they are better, there is no way these free products have the features that the other software has that cost several thousand dollars. Its not because it cost more that makes me say that, its because the compaies can hire the best programmers to to the work. I dont know about you, but I couldnt afford to spend all my time and energy developing a product that wasnt going to support my family. So these products dont have nearly the same resources dedicated to them.

Products dont stay in this industry if they are over priced. You may think that a full version of MAYA is overpriced, but its based on the tools it has and the power it has. If it were the same or worse as a free software package or one that is 1/2 the price, how long do you think they'd stay in business? NOT LONG.

Try to use the real deal if you have any desire to work in the field. The experience will get you far.
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Unread 31-10-2003, 13:05
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woah!
i use maya for most if not all of my cg work- but "best"- definatly not!
it all depends on what you are doing.
research xsi and houdini before you throw the word "best" around
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Unread 31-10-2003, 14:45
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Quote:
Originally posted by stevek


MAYA is the best 3D software out there. If you dont know that then you need to look at the highend pros at places like pixar.
Sure, for now... Pixar and others use many of their own tools as well, they hardly work just in Maya... it's not nearly advanced enough to support that.

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BTW: Things are free for a reason, its not becuse they are better, there is no way these free products have the features that the other software has that cost several thousand dollars. Its not because it cost more that makes me say that, its because the compaies can hire the best programmers to to the work. I dont know about you, but I couldnt afford to spend all my time and energy developing a product that wasnt going to support my family. So these products dont have nearly the same resources dedicated to them.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First of all... the blender community raised in excess of $100,000 for the release of the sourcecode and the set up of the infrastructure for blender. Second, Apache, Linux and the numerous other products which absolutely rip products which do cost money an new place to excrete in terms of quality and performance futher prove that software which doesn't cost money can and usually ends up being, better than it's competition.

Next time do some research before bashing products which cost less.

Quote:
Products dont stay in this industry if they are over priced. You may think that a full version of MAYA is overpriced, but its based on the tools it has and the power it has. If it were the same or worse as a free software package or one that is 1/2 the price, how long do you think they'd stay in business? NOT LONG.
If your point was true, Microsoft would have long faded into oblivion. The fact is, overpriced products can usually survive longer than they should for very stupid reasons. Now don't get me wrong, with the current development, Maya definately has it's market. But Blender is nearly on par with 3DS, it will soon exceed it and the next thing to go after will be Lightwave and Maya. It will likely eventually exceed them in functionality as well.

GIMP is a great example of free software that goes from the ground to competing with the de facto standard and, for some people's uses, definately beat it. Linux is another thing that went from mere competition with Minix to one of the most prevalant server Operating Systems in the world.
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Unread 31-10-2003, 15:34
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I DID SAY IN THIS INDUSTRY. Corect me if I'm wrong AGAIN! but this forum is for 3D Animation!!! So this industry is not the OS industry, its 3D Software.

I'm not to familiar with Houdini, but I do know that some of the Big Guys are using it. (Like Digital Domain). The thing to look at is what are You doing with it! I stated before that I use Lightwave in the professional environment. So do places like Digital Domain and and ILM. But they still use MAYA for more complex stuff than Lightwave and 3DS is Capable of. And Correct me if I'm wrong, AGAIN! but Houdini is not Free Either. And no one mentioned that program when they were trying to say that Maya was worthless and Free is Better. You have to weigh the functions and budget of the work your doing before you can decide on what package is best for you. I know all the high end facilities use proprietary stuff, thats why I like Lightwave so much. Its one of the best complete packages out there. YES I SAID THE WORD BEST (or one of the best) I like the rendering engine and the ease of use. Alot of the others you need advanced degrees to make the thing work. Thats why there are rocket scientists and nuclear physicists working on some of the staffs of the high end production places.

And before you bash microsoft, keep in mind that there is a cause and effect for everything. If they didn't do what they did, computers may not be as prevalent today. And your wrist watch could have been the most powerful computer you own. Some narrow minded folks may not like that comment, but look at the time line of when computers took off and when microsoft was developing for them. MAC was even out way back then and they haven't developed as much impact on society as MS has. This impact has opened the door for things like linix to develop. Frankly all my stuff works fine. The only time I have trouble with Windows is when someone with no knowledge of computers messes around or doesn't do proper maintenance. I'm not against UNIX or Linux or what have you... but Until there is enough software support- for the work I do- I'm not taking a gamble with my livelihood. That might not mean anything to a High school student, but just Wait 10-15 years. By then things will be different, but you'll have other issues that you'll have to think about and weigh against your families well being.

Last edited by stevek : 31-10-2003 at 15:37.
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Unread 31-10-2003, 20:19
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Quote:
but Until there is enough software support
Red Hat AND SuSe both have professional support and a large user base...
Quote:
they were trying to say that Maya was worthless and Free is Better
I dont think anyone said that maya was worthless... I believe that they were commenting on powerful alternatives to high-end software...
Quote:
And your wrist watch could have been the most powerful computer you own.
wait, what did m$ have to do w/ japanese microprocessors?
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Unread 31-10-2003, 21:27
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Microsoft has never pushed innovation.

I was simply making the point that you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about when you said basically that free software was worthless.

I think that in many different arenas free software has shown that it can be quite successful. Even, as the GIMP example is shown free software can gain success in the Graphics Industry. Which, as you can see, is closely related to these forums.

Quote:
I'm not against UNIX or Linux or what have you... but Until there is enough software support- for the work I do- I'm not taking a gamble with my livelihood. That might not mean anything to a High school student, but just Wait 10-15 years. By then things will be different, but you'll have other issues that you'll have to think about and weigh against your families well being.
Before you ever say something like this, seeing as you like to look at what the professionals use... It's only fair that you know that they would never use Windows for their rendering. One of the limitations of Maya's Personal Edition is they won't release a version for *nix because they know that a *nix version is actually useful for work. So please tone down your it-is-not-good-enough for me attitude.
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Last edited by djcapelis : 31-10-2003 at 21:45.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 11:10
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My statement never said its not good enough for me. I think you proved my point. The companies like maya don't release their AFORDABLE versions for Unix- which means the support of AFORDABLE INDUSTRY STANDARD software is not there. I said I have nothing agains UNIX. Even though you quoted my entire statement your responce takes coments out of context. So go back and read all the posts in this thread. Then make more complete arguments. From what I can see, most of you are students, or you selected the wrong Title for yourself. If thats the case, is it too much to assume that you only read about the industry and you are not a working professional. I do work for major corprations, TV Networks and large production compaines. I have been in the industry for 10yrs. I see whats being used first hand. The stuff you talk about is being used for some feature films and national TV commercial work. These are 6, 7, and 8 figure budgets (thats 100k and up incase you dont know the financial terms) You will find that only a select number of production companies deal with this level of work. So if you read all my posts you will see that I talk about the type of work and budgets that you work for will determine the tools that make sence. With this in mind. I feel that there is not ENOUGH software to produce a FULL project at the price thats AFORDABLE based on the BUDGETS I work in. I also feel that there is not enough FREE stuff out there to do the trick either. That's not to say that there is not a program here or there that is good. Its definately not cost effective to have different computers and O/S's running just to run one or two pieces of software here and one or two pieces of software there. Unless you have some of these endless budgets to afford the systems and all the upgrades for multiple platforms of the same software.

I'm not even going to adress the Microsoft issues here- Call me when you have a better understanding of business and economics. And the understanding only comes from real world experience and study as a business owner- not as an employee and not from a High School teacher or Colege professor. Which expliains why of all the Multi-millionairs I know most don't have a college degree. Most of the billionairs Iv'e met and or read about- Are not colege graduates. I say to help you understand that business is not learned in school and untill you understand business you wont understand what I am talking about in regards to microsoft. How the heck would the microprocessor companies have enough capital to further develop their technology if there weren't any computers that were user friendly and floodiung the market? Its a simbiotic relation ship.

Last edited by stevek : 01-11-2003 at 11:17.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 12:32
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*yawn* I'm not impressed, so please cut the patronizing attitude. I have plenty of ground to stand on and just because you've worked in the industry for 10 yrs doesn't mean you know your $@#$@#$@# from a hole in the ground. Not that you don't... but it in itself doesn't mean much. There are plenty of clueless people in every industry. Again, I'm not saying you're one of them, just that I don't know you're not.

I yes, I think we can all figure out what an 8 figure budget is. (We can count you know... and I'm sure we've all heard those terms before. *rolls eyes*) Kinda light for the industry actually... I was more refferring to what higher 8 and 9 figure projects do. They render on Linux.

And for your information, seeing as you have a hard time with what you first posted... this is the argument I've been consistently dispelling:

Quote:
there is no way these free products have the features that the other software has that cost several thousand dollars. Its not because it cost more that makes me say that, its because the compaies can hire the best programmers to to the work. I dont know about you, but I couldnt afford to spend all my time and energy developing a product that wasnt going to support my family. So these products dont have nearly the same resources dedicated to them.
So yes, you did bash all free software. And I'm simply pointing out that it was extremely stupid to ever say that, as it's false and you should know better. The fact that you don't make me wonder in what parts of the industry you have worked in... because most of the good studios do render on an operating system which, according to your arguments, doesn't have any good programmers programming it. Many also use other open-source software in their work. Disney (who might have just a little bit of knowledge in the field) has been committing programmers on the WINE project to help the developers in their goal to create an entire re-implementation of the win32 API under linux to run apps such as photoshop. This just proves how much many studios with a lot of cash really do like free software, they are willing to hire programmers to aid in the continuation of it's development. And everyone benefits. Nice little system eh? Not something you should say only creates inferior products. This is the crux of my argument.
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Last edited by djcapelis : 01-11-2003 at 12:36.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 16:20
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stevek:
read up before you start arguing. a small place in an industry doesnt give you a perfect view.
3dbuzz.com (a 3d school)
3dWorld Magazine / Computer Arts (Major UK 3d magazine)
Even your god microsoft buys other companies computers to use and copy off.
Major Video cards makers have available certified linux drivers...
just because you've never seen linux in action and like to sit in the same old rut doesnt mean other people have to also.
Quote:
upgrades for multiple platforms of the same software.
thats pretty stupid to buy the same software for multiple o/s's.. buy it for the one to conquer the rest.
Quote:
Most of the billionairs Iv'e met and or read about- Are not colege graduates.
but you know what? the people they hire are.
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Unread 02-11-2003, 21:11
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stevek:
read up before you start arguing. ...
You have me wrong, djcapelis was confrontational with the first couple responses. So I didn't Start any argument. I was wondering why he started the thread if he doesn't want to hear the answers that people are giving.

djcapelis, you are still taking things out of context. When I talked about Free software- I was talking about Free software in THIS INDUSTRY. Not the O/S Market. It seems you keep proving my point. You talk about Disney working on rewriting win32 to allow Photoshop and other programs to run on Linux- Well these are the breakthroughs that need to be made (Not in progress) before I can safely switch over. I said several; times- it's not Linux or Unix I have a problem with. Its if I ran a Linux box I could only run a few programs on it for my needs. In the working envirenment I need all or most of my computeres to be similar so that I can jump in anywhere and get my work done and not have to render on one and be stuck ton being able to work on another because I dont have the software. I also need to have several people working on the same project at once and compatiblity/ productivity limitations can be a major hastle.

When I talk about REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, it's not to put you down (though the thought crossed my mind- HA HA- hope you can take a joke and not take that personal too!) I Talk about real world experience because there are situations that are beyond your (and my) control. Like being COMPATIBLE with other Production Companies and Corporate Client's equipment, software, and what have you. Believe it or not, I have spent thousands of extra money (beyond what I needed to for the task) just to get compatible stuff. When you only work on your stuff- these things aren't an issue and the thought probably never entered your mind (ant thats not a put down)

As far as this quote from me:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
upgrades for multiple platforms of the same software.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------And this response:

thats pretty stupid to buy the same software for multiple o/s's.. buy it for the one to conquer the rest.

Are you telling me that you can rewrite the code of Photoshop and Aftereffects all by yourself (............)

Sorry to inform you- I can't. Ive been in situations where we ran DEC Alpha's and Intel Processors Stuff and had to purchase multiple copies of software because they don't run the same way. I'm sure unix and Windows require separate versions too. So Why would you call me stupid. If you could rewrite the code yourself, send me a copy. I'd love to use it.


As far as my background. I'll start by saying you haven't proven anything to me either. I don't know you from a Hole in the wall. So where in the same vote. I also agree there are plenty of people out there that do a better job of occupying space than contributing to the industry. I told you the kind of work I do. Besides 3D and 2D Graphics and Effects, I also Design and Program Multimedia CD & Web Stuff as well as DVD's. I have successfully been self employed since getting out of college. Try that as a hack. I know plenty of better people than me, but very few of them compete in the same market as me (at least in my area). I have clients all over the US and in Europe. So I have some Idea what I'm talking about. Besides being a graphic artist, I consult several clients on hardware and software solutions for their businesses. (And no matter how you or I feel, you have to consider the end user- many of them could never deal with Linux, they have enough trouble turing the computer on and checking email.)

I'd rather be the Billionaire than work for the billionaire!

djcapelis, I don't see this conversation going any where. I followed my own advise and reread the thread. You've been disagreeing with almost every post. So I don't think your really open minded to What others are using (as you asked) Maybe you'd say the same about me- hey its your right! I will read your responses (out of courtesy) but unless you offer something new here- I'm done.



EXCEPT FOR ONE THING-
No one has touched the topic I brought forth- I thought we were supposed to use 3DS for all of the 3D in the competition. All the posts in the beginning sounded like you guys use other stuff. Everyone seemed to avoid that part of my posts. So whats up with that?

Last edited by stevek : 02-11-2003 at 21:17.
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Unread 03-11-2003, 21:52
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I see nothing in the competition rules to prevent the use of other tools.

You still don't seem to be getting what part of the argument I'm spefically trying to put to rest. The idea that free software does not have enough revenue to hire good programmers and all good programmers will flock to the nonfree products, which was essentially your entire argument in your small rant against free software and why you view it as useless in this industry.

I've simply been trying to get you to see that this is not the case, a fact which you've been avoiding... which unfortunately has increased my annoyance. My apologies on that.

As to my goals for this thread, your right, and as I stated in my third post to the topic (it was actually already about maya) I was more aiming to see if anyone else was planning on using open-source or Free tools for their animation. So yes, the thread may be slightly mistitled. As you see there though, other than a slight rant against the horrendous crippling done on the free student version, I was fairly open to hear of about how maya was being used as well. (I even went so far as too check the prices on Maya again to see if it was vaugely worth it compared to just hunting out the appropriate python scripts.) Besides, no features seem to be anything I need that I can't get...

The funny part is even the guy that previously discussed maya on this thread seems to have been against you these last few posts... it seems I'm not the only one who felt that you had an attitude and was making some allegations that were not true.

So yes, if your fine with it, I'm happy to leave this flamewar be and spend time calling corporations to ensure our team has the funds needed to travel this year instead.

Oh, and photoshop has run fine on linux for some time now... yes, the windows version.
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Last edited by djcapelis : 03-11-2003 at 22:02.
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Unread 04-11-2003, 09:44
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The rules from 2003 Go to page 17 section 6.1; This is ablout the sofware to use! Dont get me wrong. I would love to use other stuff too. I could teach lightwave to the student much faster than 3DS. But it's only fair to keep the playing field level.


I have an Idea:
Why don't you open an thread on putting together a Linux box. complete with where to download and how to install (if there are special tips or instructions on any of it) and a list of good open-source software. And a list of other software that works on it as is. Then others can test it out and you'd be contibuting to the education of anyone that wnat to read it and follow your instructions.

I'll look at any 3D softare that you say is equal or beter than Maya. But I dont know where to get it. What do you sugest. I'd love to find FREE stuff thats that powerful. That will shut me up and will prove your point... Free stuff thats as powerful and feature packed as Maya.

BTW: Things in Maya that make it BEST in my opinion are the 3D Paint Features- both painting objects and painting ON objects, Soft Body dynamics, and detail you have for controling bone constraints (IE gradients maps) I have seen limited attempts to match these features but have not seen anything to compair. What do you guys know of that beats these and adds to the mix. I've never seen software that does it, which is why I hold it in such high esteem. (I dont even use Maya because I don't have budgets or projects to justify the cost when I already own Lightwave)

As far a crippleware: companies do this to get you to use and learn the software, but to get a working version for free... no way!!! Maya Personal Learning Addition (is not an "Educational version" as far as discounted student/school versions go) it is a free download to get you to learn and decide if you want to take the plung. You could probably learn enough to get a job if you practice enough with it. Discreet has a product for Drafting called REVIT. Their crippleware doesnt allow you to save so you can only work in one sitting and then have to start over. Very annoying. I wrote them to ask them to change the features. I'm not against crippleware (as a business owner) but as a user, I'm not going to have the time to explore all the features in one sitting. then I need to get back to the same spot in the project just to continue my exploration. As I thing I mentioned above, try the FREEDV from AVID. Its on the home page I think. Its a scaled down free download of their edit software. I have the real thing so I havent used this version.


Bye for now, I'll be looking for a new thread on a Linux graphics workstation from you. Then you can put all your knowledge on the subject to use.

LAter

Last edited by stevek : 04-11-2003 at 09:56.
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