Christmas and Schools

[Madison]

There are heaping piles of bad information floating about in this thread.

The government, as per the Establishment Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, is precluded from taking action to endorse any single religion. The impetus behind enacting these measures was to prevent history from repeating itself -- or, specifically, to avoid oppression by the State such as that of England and its officially endorsed Church of England. Remember why the Pilgrims piled into the Mayflower in the first place?

Kristina's already done a good job in explaining the legal processes at work in these debates. A quick search of the internet will reveal the text of the important court decisions regarding this issue.

Let's talk about some of the erroneous assumptions made, though, and maybe dispel some of their incorrection assertions.

• Christmas was officially recognized by the Church in the last century alone.

That's simply wrong. Christmas was first celebrated by Christians in 336 A.D., while Pope Gregory officially included December 25th as Christmas day in his sixteenth century reign. Christmas was adopted as a means of stymieing celebration of "pagan" holidays in empires that officially recognized Christianity as their state religion. It certainly has been "okay with the Church" for quite a bit longer than the last century, and has since been manipulated into a celebration of Christ as a means of further denying its heritage as a celebration borne out of oppression.

• Christmas is a religious observance.

Christian history itself shows that the Christmas holiday is little more than a convenient appropriation of other celebrations, notably Iranian and Roman, intent on minimizing their practice and significance. Similarly, courts of the United States and its States have ruled that Christmas is not considered to be a religious observance by the population and, as such, our government's recognition of December 25 as a federal holiday is not in violation of the Establishment Clause or the Fourteenth Amendment.

The history of Christmas, coupled with such decisions by our courts, raises some interesting questions. The precedent of such cases is that it's possible to "secularize" religious observances by coupling or shrouding their observance with consumerism and recreation. It gives the government the power to underhandedly give preference and precedence to certain holy days, typically Christian, by conjuring up secular celebrations to coincide with them. In many ways, the courts have deconstructed the Christian establishment of Christmas by claiming it as a secular celebration, conflicting with the Church's own actions toward stripping Christmas of its secular, or "pagan" history.

One must wonder the extent to which it may be possible to "secularize" religious observances and make them sanitized enough for government support. If the Catholic Church declared that our Memorial Day were to be observed as a religious celebration, are we to abdicate its significance as a national holiday, or would the recognition of its secular roots retain strength enough to clearly maintain the "separation of Church and state"? Such precedents may result in the de facto establishment of an official religion, or, in my opinion, the continued establishment of Christianity as the sanctioned religion of the United States of America.

• "So, obviously, it is Christianity, not religions in general, that our government dosn't [sic] want anyone to know about."

In fact, everything points to the opposite. I've already written about the move toward supposed "secularization" of Christian observances and the sanction given by courts. There exist in our government myriad references to God, found everywhere from our currency to our Pledge of Allegiance.

The backlash against these policies and practices is easily characterized as an explicit attack on Christian sensibilities and morals, but it is not. It is a rebellion, in its earliest stages, against the tyranny of the majority. Christianity is, by far, the most popular, practiced religion in the United States, and as such, is implicated in a proportionate number of court cases intent on examining how the Establishment Clause is being upheld amid a population that has, in the last decades, become increasingly religious. Court cases challenging the Pledge of Allegiance, nativity scenes on public property, or public funding of religiously-affiliated private schools are not designed, however, to squelch Christian practice or deny Christians their right to believe in the God they trust. Instead, they are designed to make sure that Christianity does not, in its increasing influence, strip minority groups of their rights to freedom of religious expression. If Buddhism were of similar prominence, it's likely that it would be subject to exactly the same criticisms.

Those things said, the ways that courts, schools, and other organizations deal with that backlash is often ineffective and inconsistent.

• Before the middle of the last century, everyone understood that the Establishment Clause [of the First Amendment] was erected against institutions – like the Episcopal Church or the Catholic Church – so that church institutions wouldn’t seize power and rule over our government. As our culture fell away from God, however, the idea took root that the Establishment Clause wasn’t just aimed at the institutional church, but also at the individual believer.

The Establishment Clause does not distinguish between institution or individual. It was erected to defend against the possibility of the power of government being used by those charged with its operation, via election or appointment, to support, encourage, or proliferate the belief system of any one religion over another. Where the influence to take such action in support of certain religions originates is inconsequential.

• People with liberal ideals are bad, crazy, immoral or misinformed.

Gross generalizations about the beliefs, ideas, or potential of other people to do good or harm are, almost universally, without legitimacy. To claim otherwise, or to engage in such generalizations is sophomoric and indicative of an utter lack of understanding of the issues at hand; those of power balance, privilege, oppression and opportunity.

Furthermore, while I don't believe that Yan's action is responsible or consequential, I admire him for acting upon his conviction. It is, without doubt, considerably more respectable to enjoy the benefits of government while participating in its processes than it is to simply enjoy its benefits without understanding or caring about who has suffered to bring them to you.

• People are angered by this subject and, thus, write with emotion rather than intelligence.

I can only speak for myself, but this is not true. In fact, to my thinking, to suggest that people are "flaming" one another is often a tactic used when one has no other recourse in defending themselves or their argument. To suggest that someone writes from emotion strips them of their credibility, such that any points they may make are rendered immaterial and discarded. It's a simple, convenient mechanism for ignoring issues we do not want to address. It's ineffective.

There's nothing that's happened here insofar as giving any indication that people are upset with the discourse taking place. People are, instead, reacting to this thread and writing their opinions about the issues contained herein. Because they do not seem germane to any one person's views, ideas, or hopes for this discussion does not mean that they're without merit, nor without place. Instead, I think that varied contributions provide more viewpoints from which we can each examine our own feelings.

[Melissa Nute]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

There's nothing that's happened here insofar as giving any indication that people are upset with the discourse taking place. People are, instead, reacting to this thread and writing their opinions about the issues contained herein. Because they do not seem germane to any one person's views, ideas, or hopes for this discussion does not mean that they're without merit, nor without place. Instead, I think that varied contributions provide more viewpoints from which we can each examine our own feelings.

You stated exactly what I was trying to last night.

The history of Christmas is a wonderful thing.

[KenWittlief]

when I said "If you research it a little you will discover that the church actually frowned on the celebration of christmas for longer than they have accepted it (because of its pagan roots)"

what I meant was, the christian church tried to take over the pagan practices of the winter soltace celebrations, but they could not surplant the existing traditions completely

and as a result they ended up with a cross beween a christain celebration of the birth of Christ along with many pagan rituals and practices, some of which were very sexual in nature

so in a sense, the church created a monster :c)

there was an (unusally excellent) program on the history of christmas on the history channel a while ago that talked about this - it wasnt until christmas started becoming commercialized in the US that it started to loose its more objectional associations with the immoral pagan practices - then it became more generally acceptable to the church as a whole (I wish I knew where to point you for more info on this)

so I didnt mean to say that christmas was rejected by the church, they thought they could squelch the pagan practices assosicated with the winter soltice observation, but instead they ended up giving them more steam than if they had left them alone.

I guess you had to see the program - they explained it better than I am here.

BUT back to the subject of this thread - I have several friends who came here from China, and I see there intentions on maintaining their cultural traditions with their children. Ive been invited to several Chinese new-years partys and always have a great time.

My grandparents came to the US from Germany around 1910 - and I wish I had learned more about their roots, learned to speak german...

Christmas IS a part of our culture. So is thanksgiving, july 4th, easter, rock and roll music, fast food, and being independant and somewhat rebellious when you are young :^)

One thing I would suggest to turn this situation around - talk to your sisters teacher and see if you can start some sort of chinese new year celebration at her school - I like moon-pie (at least once a year :c)

[Wetzel]

I saw Kwanzaa mentioned, but Kwanzaa is not a religious thing. It was invented by Dr. Maulana Karenga, chair of Department of Black Studies at CSU-Long Beach in 1966 as an alternative to Christmas.

Dr. Karenga's official Kwanzaa website states that while celebrating Kwanzaa includes "special reverence for the creator," and is "spiritual," ". . . it is important to note Kwanzaa is a cultural holiday, not a religious one. ...it was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society."

Hurray for political correctness and misinformation!

About students having to take unexcused absences for Rosh Hashanah and other holidays, here in Fairfax County you get an excused absence for any religious holiday, with a note from your parent.

And about the 12 days of Christmas, the song by itself has become secular because no one knows its history, much like many people belive Kwanzaa is an ancient African celebration. Because something mentions a religious event, you want it removed from your sisters school? Better remove all the history books, and don't forget the encyclopedias. The constitution does not ban religion, it just prohibits laws regarding any establishment of religion or limiting the free practice thereof.

However, the 12 days of Christmas song does have religious significance. The 12 days start with Christmas Day and finish on the eve of Epiphany, January 5th.
From what I can remember
True love - God
2 Turtle Doves - Old and New Testaments
4 Calling Birds - 4 Gospels
5 Golden Rings - The Pentateuch (first 5 books of Old Testament)
6 Geese a-laying - Days of creation
10 Lords a-leaping - 10 Commandments
11 Pipers Piping - 11 faithful apostles
12 Drummers Drumming - 12 points of the Apostles Creed



Wetzel

[Yan Wang]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

And about the 12 days of Christmas, the song by itself has become secular because no one knows its history, much like many people belive Kwanzaa is an ancient African celebration. Because something mentions a religious event, you want it removed from your sisters school? Better remove all the history books, and don't forget the encyclopedias. The constitution does not ban religion, it just prohibits laws regarding any establishment of religion or limiting the free practice thereof.
Wetzel

True, the song was an example of something with religious significance and only with ambiguous ties to religion, ones that a court probably wouldn't hold true. I'm not asking for the song to be removed. I'm just asking the principal to consider the curriculum. Plus, I know the guy.

I remembered something while driving back to NY. When my sister was in preschool, she came home one day with a picture flap book about Noah's Ark. And you know what she did? She started talking about how she learned from school that God had created the animals.

If she learned it herself and believed it, I would respect her thoughts. However, the fact that her school taught it to her was something that infuriated me. The 12 days of christmas does not do that to me. It just brings up a question my mind regarding her curriculum. It also reminds me of the Noah's Ark situation.

[KenWittlief]

are you sure you are not imposing your religious beliefs on your little sister?

one of the basic principles of being a parent, brother, friend... is that each person will eventually come to the right understanding of the universe, and find their own place in it. People may try to influence us along the way, but in the long run, we all find a concept of the world that matches what is in our hearts.

even though its difficult to do, we must give each individual the freedom and room, and have faith that they will make the right decisions.

[Yan Wang]

I didn't say to her that that was not true. I was just infuriated within myself that the school tried to impose those ideas upon her. She has come to learn, after 3-4 years, what she has wanted to and luckily, when I asked her just now about who created animals, she said, "I dunno."

[KenWittlief]

many years back our family was going somewhere in the car

My son Jeremy was about 4, and he pointed out the window and said "God made those trees!"

my wife said,"Thats right! who made your sister?

and he said "God did"

and I asked him who made your mommy? and he said "God did"

and my daughter asked him, "Who made daddy?"

he thought for a second and lowered his voice and said,

" I dont know ?! " :^)

[Blacknight]

Actually M Christianity is the most persecuted religion in America because nothing protects it. Everything is made to protect other religions, but nothing on christianity. The original idea was a good idea, but now it is useless. Just like Affermative Action. I'm srry to rant on this but it is totally useless. Racism doesn't plague america like it once did. Busniess do not hire who they like based on race, they hire the person that can do the job the best. Just like the whole protection of other religions AA has become just as useless. The church can't crush any other religions anymore. How could they? They have no army, no way to "run them out of busniess." Thus all religions are equal in america.

These are the words of the unoppressed; someone who has never, in their lifetime, had to defend their religion or faith from anything more than an intellectual challenge. They are the words of someone who has not been persecuted for their beliefs by being interned in work camps or subjected to intensified scrutiny in the interest of national security; someone who's people weren't killed for their beliefs. Are you unfamiliar with genocide?

Oh and yes i have been persecuted for my faith. And yes i have fought for it so before you assume plz kno a little more about the person you're talking about.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Blacknight

Actually M Christianity is the most persecuted religion in America because nothing protects it.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects Christianity, along with all other religions, by ensuring that the Government can create no law to disfavor it, along with all other religions. It protects all religion. To draft or enact a law that protects Christianity alone, due your assertion of its place as the "most persecuted religion," would violate the Establishment Clause and be unconstitutional. The Establishment Clause was drafted to combat the sort of argument that seeks to compel people into believing one religion is more deserving than another of anything; something that the text you've written here comes dangerously close to supporting. Your belief about which religion is most persecuted, or the reality of which religion is most persecuted, for that matter, are irrelevant in the eyes of the United States' government. It can do nothing to protect them.

Oh and yes i have been persecuted for my faith. And yes i have fought for it so before you assume plz kno a little more about the person you're talking about.

Were you stoned by Muslims? Made to wear an identifying mark on your clothes by the Jews? Were you told that you can't openly practice your Christianity by the mayor of your town; Stuart, is it? Perhaps you were burned at the stake?

Perhaps I'm forgetting about some enormous movement toward Christian persecution in the history of the United States that parallels the real religious persecution that history has shown to have occurred around the world -- The Holocaust, The Crusades, The Witch Trials, or maybe The Boxer Rebellion. Nothing you have experienced is comparable to the scale of tyranny that a single religion, when given preference by the state, can bring forth unto other faiths. You're a member of the majority class and, as such, do not know oppression. Oppression is nothing more than theory to you, and you wield that theory dangerously and without regard for the consequences. It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false.

This is way off topic now and I don't believe I have much left to say on this subject. History is clear enough about the things that have happened regarding religion and government, so the best I can hope to do is illustrate those facts. I'm not going to bother trying to make anyone believe in them.

[gsensel]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Were you stoned by Muslims? Made to wear an identifying mark on your clothes by the Jews? Were you told that you can't openly practice your Christianity by the mayor of your town; Stuart, is it? Perhaps you were burned at the stake?

Perhaps I'm forgetting about some enormous movement toward Christian persecution in the history of the United States that parallels the real religious persecution that history has shown to have occurred around the world -- The Holocaust, The Crusades, The Witch Trials, or maybe The Boxer Rebellion. Nothing you have experienced is comparable to the scale of tyranny that a single religion, when given preference by the state, can bring forth unto other faiths. You're a member of the majority class and, as such, do not know oppression. Oppression is nothing more than theory to you, and you wield that theory dangerously and without regard for the consequences. It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false.

Yes, you are right that we have not been persecuted in the ways other religons have. Still that fact is we are persecuted in the US and many other places.

[Blacknight]

It's fun to pretend that Christianity is on a level playing with all other faiths, or even that the balance of power has tipped away from its favor, by both those ideas are quite false.

But then again, from my point of view, if Christianity is spread then more ppl are saved. In all religions somewhere in their holy book it says to spread the faith. And since the government cannot protect other faiths from being "crushed" there is nothing wrong w/ Christianity being so large because it is the ppls of the world's choice. Cultures die off things change, it is the way of life.

And persecution is what the person chooses. Yes it is not fair but they choose to beleive in a God so strongly that they are willing to die for it. But then again you wouldn't understand being an athiest or agnostic...

[FotoPlasma]

Originally Posted by Blacknight

Oh and yes i have been persecuted for my faith. And yes i have fought for it so before you assume plz kno a little more about the person you're talking about.

Can you give some examples?

Being an atheist, I can't imagine the woes and pains of a Christian in modern American society.

[Blacknight]

Some examples?
Sure lets see being shunned, grouped, fights, vandalism....
yeah not as extreme as being shot but then again we are america, land of the free, except for those who are different

[jonathan lall]

Black, I believe Foto was referring to specific examples of "being shunned, grouped, fights, vandalism" etc., as you did say you were subject to it. Also, don't you think it's a tad ignorant to say that atheists and agnostics would not understand being willing to die for a god, as you are neither of the two?

I think every faith--and also athiests--have to take a lot of crap from others, but that's diffucult to quantify, so how about let's not go saying that one particular faith has it the worst. In the United States, it is clear at this moment that neither Christians nor atheists have it nearly as bad as those that belong to some other faiths.

Back to the matter at hand, would this imposition of Christmas not qualify as the exact opposite of the argument that Christians are persecuted more than others? I think it's so entrenched today that it's taken for granted. What about Easter?