Raising the bar...or lowering it?

[Case]

I think first has allowed the game to become more competitive while still allowing the better teams an advantage.

A bulldozer and a human player would be enough to make a team; feed the balls to the human player, let them shoot and score. Now, if this is all a team did, it could create a decent score. But a more advanced robot, one that could feed balls quicker, hang on the bar, control the multiplyers, would make the difference between two teams.

Now in a matchup of 3 bulldozers and a bulldozer with an arm. Who would win? Most likely the team with the armed robot.

One other point. What about the teams that cannot compete in the engineering intensive competitions? My build team is essentially 10 students, a maintenence man, and a couple engineers that stop by every so often. Last year's competiton turned into tourqe wars, and our team had many problems because we didn't have a gearbox, and didn't have the knowledge and the metal shop to create one. This year, we can do without and create a competative robot useing our workshop.

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

I'd hate to tell you this but rookies generally have no knowledge of engineering, machinery, or design. It took me almost three years to have a fairly decent knowledge of those three areas.

So if FIRST team's are not required to have or gain understanding of engineering, machinery, or design, why are they entered in a competition to build robots?

[EvilInside]

Originally Posted by Case

Now in a matchup of 3 bulldozers and a bulldozer with an arm. Who would win? Most likely the team with the armed robot.

Well of course, an armed robot would win by attrition. . .. . .

Moron session completed, I think that while a rookie team could build a bulldozer, they will have less sucess than in previous years. Last year, 25 points could be earned by simply being parked at the top of the ramp. Only a drivetrain to do that. Any boxes they managed to push into their zone was just gravy at that point. This year, a bulldozer robot can't even directly score points, they need to rely on the human players. The end-of-game points this year are an astounding 50, but look at the task required to attain that 50 points. To break the game down, there are three major scoring strategies:
1) Bulldoze balls to the human players. Probably the best route for rookies, although some of the braver ones could attempt more complex designs with great success.
2) Manipulate the 2x balls. It just takes a little engineering to build a simple arm and claw. Fairly easy to do, with huge scoring possiblilities.
3) Hanging from the bar. That bar is 10 feet in the air. Really, for a 5 foot robot, that is a lot. Even to just seriously think about getting up there, the robot needs to either climb stairs and navigate a narrow pathway, or be able to climb a couple 6 inch steps, and then finally extend at least nine feet in the air, and then pull up their most likely 100 pound plus robot and suspend it there. Hardly easy, with a great deal of points attached. I think that this is the best game I've seen.

Originally Posted by Ben Mitchell

So if FIRST team's are not required to have or gain understanding of engineering, machinery, or design, why are they entered in a competition to build robots?

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

I'd hate to tell you this but rookies generally have no knowledge of engineering, machinery, or design. It took me almost three years to have a fairly decent knowledge of those three areas.

Exactly what he said, he LEARNED it in 3 years. Nobody expects them to already know, but if they do learn a lot in their rookie season, that’s a good enough reason for me (and a lot of other people) to enter this competition.

[Enslaved]

Well..well!
Interesting...
I'm from a rookie team, yet I'm not a rookie!
I was in last year's competition, Team #1219
However, this year, our school decided to have a separate girls' team, #1309!
So..I'm in it, and well, it is true, most rookie team members have no clue about engineering and machinery!

I know, how many girls did not even know how to hold a drill...or what a shaft was, or what an axle was...
Well, we had tutorials for that, and *sighs* the condition has improved drastically, but overall, I'd say, there are still 25% of members who are still young babes in these dark woods!

So, in that case, FIRST, is helping us a great deal
I mean, how can you possibly teach 20 people about different drive systems, and expect to build a fully-functional robot in six weeks!
Hmm...it's great help
I guess..I'd call it re-adjusting the bar!
LoL!

[KenWittlief]

why are so many people looking down their collective noses at rookie teams here?

just because this is a teams first year competing, that doenst mean their engineers, mentors OR students just fell out of a tree last night!

The intention of FIRST is to team up engineers and highschool students to form teams - this stuff may be complex for HS students, but to be honest, for an engineer with any experience, its pretty straight forward.

never count out the rookies - if you need convincing, last year the Sparks from Webster/Xerox WON the Cleveland regional - their rookie year as a team.

[deltacoder1020]

quite simply, the way it works out is this: yes, you can build a bulldozer. you'll even get a decent amount of points. what it comes down to is the "edge" - giving your team an advantage so that you come out with more points. If everyone has a dozer, then everyone will (assuming equal driving and human players) score about the same points. It's when you start adding other things to the dozer that make the difference. Essentially, the dozer works, yes, but it's only the basis for the overall robot - if all you have is a dozer, expect the minimum results - anyone with something beyond the dozer will probably beat you.

[KenWittlief]

I dont know if you will be able to do much with a dozer or plow this year - you tap them balls and they are going to roll all over the place

I think you are going to want something with a little more control over the balls.

[Crop-Circles]

For the past two years, an alliance could gain control of all the goals/bins early in the game and cut off there opponents main source of points. This year, it will be incredibly difficult to stop your opponent from getting any balls, since they will eventually be scattered anyway. This elliminates the possibility of an alliance being left without a way to score. Throw in the fact that the bar is harder to reach then a ramp or home zone, and control stradegies become almost impossible. So disadvantaged teams (not always rookies) can't be shut out, while advanced teams have new challenges to deal with.

I love this game!

[Jedi Padawan]

Ok here's my view on it... by including prefab parts you allow more advanced teams to work on the "extras" like stackers and other things, in the same token most advanced teams already have a system worked out for how you would cope with making those prefab parts to begin with. Whereas I beleive the intent is for rookie teams to actually stand a chance at maybe competing thier first year and not getting smashed to pieces. Oh well my two cents is up your turn....

[Joe Johnson]

This game is going to be the best game FIRST ever had.

Why?

Because it is going to advance the goal of FIRST more than all the hard challenges of the other games combined!

FIRST wins when the casual fan enjoys the game.

This game is going to do that.

I love engineering challenges as much as the next engineer, but that is not what FIRST is about. It IS about changing the culture and sadly, in this culture, that means getting more TV coverage.

This game is going to give us that in spades. From what I see, this game is going to get FIRST more quality TV time than all the other games combined.

and THAT is what I call, "raising the bar."

Joe J.

P.S. And if my mom likes the game, I am more likely to enjoy sitting in the stand for 2 days too.

[Soukup]

Originally Posted by IMDWalrus

...or as Ken said in another thread, remote-controlled bulldozers.

Just wait and see the game in action. You might think it's simple now, but wait until you've got four robots with conflicting strategies on the field.

How many teams thought that stacking would be the primary objective of last years game? Even Wildstang had a stack mechanism on the side of their robot. Remember, these games NEVER turn out they way we think they will. You will be surprised.

[ngreen]

I have to defend the rookies. Last year I personally saw more rookies who could stack than veteran teams. Veteran autonomous was generally better though, even though my team miss getting up the ramp only twice during the championship (once we got ran into by a veteran alliance member, and the other using a loaned battery with a bad cell). As rookies last year my team was able to win 4 awards at LSR (championship, rookie all-star, quality, and team spirit) and national all-star. Granted my team had several great mentor teams and very devoted mentors, even though only two of the eight were engineers. Rookies have the ability to do some of the things that even veteran can't, thinking outside the box and this competition. My team hosted a robotic LEGO daycamp for elementary students a couple Saturday ago and on of our mentor mentions tonight how it was great to work with them because they don't know about the box. I think the 225 rookie team will have something to show this year, and if not, I count on all the veterans to be their to help.

[Jedi Padawan]

Originally Posted by ngreen

I have to defend the rookies. Last year I personally saw more rookies who could stack than veteran teams. Veteran autonomous was generally better though, even though my team miss getting up the ramp only twice during the championship (once we got ran into by a veteran alliance member, and the other using a loaned battery with a bad cell). As rookies last year my team was able to win 4 awards at LSR (championship, rookie all-star, quality, and team spirit) and national all-star. Granted my team had several great mentor teams and very devoted mentors, even though only two of the eight were engineers. Rookies have the ability to do some of the things that even veteran can't, thinking outside the box and this competition. My team hosted a robotic LEGO daycamp for elementary students a couple Saturday ago and on of our mentor mentions tonight how it was great to work with them because they don't know about the box. I think the 225 rookie team will have something to show this year, and if not, I count on all the veterans to be their to help.

Rookies will surprise you is common this year our team just got a ton of new members and brought in a few elementary kids with them (who we teach legos, etc.) one of the designs this year was submitted by an elementary kid who had all sorts of ideas (one including a ball shooter that defied physics but that's whats meant by thinking outside the box) the funny thing is about thinking outside the box is that it tends to be contagious (at least with my team) so that if you get one good outside the box idea that it tends to grow and that tends to lead to good things and that's what I like about working with the younger ones, they have as one mentor put it "unrestrained imagination" which I think we could all gain from.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Ben Mitchell

2002: Zone Zeal - drag goals into zones. Balls are irrelevent. May the strongest bulldozer win.

If you look at the finals of 2002, it came down to ball robots. Granted the bulldozers played a huge part, but, in the finals, where bulldozers were evenly matched, the ball bots made the difference.


the 2004 game is more than just a drivetrain. Sure you can push balls into your chute with one, but you forget that the big ball doubles and hanging on the bar is 50.

You would need 10 normal balls just to equal 1 robot hanging. And twice the amount of small balls if the other alliance can optimize the big ball.

A simple drive train will work, but it will not win. I think first includes it so that rookie teams can attempt other things (arm, steps, etc.). If you have a decent drivetrain out of the box, you can devote much more time to other aspects of your robot.