Its getting to be RIDICULOUS!

[Aignam]

I think most FIRST-ers, or at least most that I know of, do appreciate FIRST. Because some of them might complain or whine once in a while doesn't mean that they don't appreciate FIRST's efforts. This is a forum, and one that I would like to think is meant for discussion. As long as the posters aren't being completely unruly, obnoxious, or acting otherwise out of line, these threads should continue. Maybe you can sway their opinions and make them all that much more grateful. Maybe the FIRST staff will get some good ideas. Not all negativity is a bad thing. Think of some of it as constructive criticism. This is not to say that some of the posts aren't out of line. FIRST-ers should be grateful. Heck, they should be more than grateful. But they should also be allowed to have thier own opinions.

[Crop-Circles]

Rather then complaining, shouldn't people be asking what they can do to fix the problem? What's the point of posting something that can't be helped? If you don't ask for or present a possible solution, then why are you posting?

[Ryan Dognaux]

There is a difference between flaming FIRST and giving them constructive criticism. Some people need to figure out the difference.

[KenWittlief]

the complaining is a good example of human nature.

Being on a FIRST team entails a lot of stress - its very demanding.

When someone does something that causes us pain or discomfort, or makes us angry we dont like feeling that way

for some reason the normal human response it to inflict pain back in the direction from which it came - to lash out at the source - to punish that person for making you feel bad.

We do it all the time, without realizing it. It seems to be instinctive. We do this when we are infants and unless someone points it out you may do it for the rest of your life.

Whats the solution? If someone has caused you grief, or thrown you a curveball then its perfectly ok to vent, to say "FIRST did this and that and I am SO ANGRY RIGHT NOW I COULD SPIT QUARTER TWENTY BOLTS THROUGH THE WALL!!!!"

Anger is normal, anger is ok - it gives FIRST the chance to come back and say, "Yes, we know this is causing problems and we're sorry for the grief its causeing"

funny thing is, as soon as someone else acknowledges your anger, acknowledges that you have a good reason to be upset, that you have been put in a difficult situation - as soon as that happens your anger melts away in seconds, and its gone for good!

but whats not OK it to attack FIRST, to insinuate that they are incompetent, or that they dont care.

If you are angry, then be angry, but in your anger do not 'sin' :c)

maybe CD should open a new forum section - the scream room, where frustrated posters can vent their anger, find some symphatic shoulders to lean on for a few minutes, and then get back to work?

[Aignam]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

maybe CD should open a new forum section - the scream room, where frustrated posters can vent their anger, find some symphatic shoulders to lean on for a few minutes, and then get back to work?

And disable bad reputation for that section. ::shudders at the nightmare that might ensue...::

[tribotec_ca88]

I agree...if people aren´t satisfied with what FIRST is deciding to do, the solution is simple: LEAVE. Nobody´s making them participate!!!

[shyra1353]

I completely agree with everything that has been said in the thread so far.

I just want to add this:

First off, its been said before, but FIRST is doing the best they can, and personally i think they are doing a great job.

but whats not OK it to attack FIRST, to insinuate that they are incompetent, or that they dont care

i agree 150% with this. FIRST is awesome and they do care. FIRST is one of the greatest organizations out there and when you think about it, they care a great deal about what happens to each and every team there is.
I know that the Canadian Regional Director (Mark Breadner) was helping my team find sponsors in early-to mid November when we still had no money. It is people like him and the rest of the volunteers that make FIRST such a great thing to be a part of and make it so that each team is taken care of.



Second off, Chiefdelphi is a great forum and Brandon has done an awesome job in making it this awesome. However, I must say that peoples complaints about FIRST do NOT belong here. Maybe if a thread was created for members only to see .. but thats besides the point.

When you go to a company to ask for sponsorship, you give them the link to www.usfirst.org (obviously). well usfirst.org links to Chiefdelphi and why in the world would a company want to get involved in something where the participants are not happy with the organization. Granted not everyone is complaining, but when you see a few threads with complaints, from a company's perspective, FIRST is not making its participants happy.



Bottom Line: FIRST is awesome, sure they have minor problems, but they do their best to sort them out as soon as possible and I do not think that Chiefdelphi is the place for these complaints.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by tribotec_ca88

I agree...if people aren´t satisfied with what FIRST is deciding to do, the solution is simple: LEAVE. Nobody´s making them participate!!!

I don't want to pick on this one response, but it will help me illustrate a slightly different point than many of the comments so far.

I really want to hear from all those that are not satisfied with FIRST and the way things have gone so far (and may continue). I think that we should welcome the complainers, the "whiners" (yes, I have used that term), the agitators and the malcontents.

FIRST knows that there are problems with the implementation of the competition this year (as there have been in every prior year). The fact that there are areas in which to improve is a surprise to no one. But it is harder to understand the relative importance of these items from the perspective of the teams, and sorting the items important to the teams from those important to the internal operations of FIRST.

This is where the feedback from the "complainers" become critical. It is largely because of that we are able to figure out where the most aggregious errors may lie in how things are implemented, and provide meaningful information and constructive suggestions back to FIRST. I don't want you to leave - I want you to keep writing!

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

-dave

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by dlavery

.....

This is where the feedback from the "complainers" become critical. It is largely because of that we are able to figure out where the most aggregious errors may lie in how things are implemented, and provide meaningful information and constructive suggestions back to FIRST. I don't want you to leave - I want you to keep writing!

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

-dave

Better yet, while telling FIRST and others how things might be done better, VOLUNTEER to help make it happen and then DO what you said you would. Help once or twice and show you're good at whatever it is, and the next thing you know, you'll be in charge and you can do it your way.

Now there's a scary thought....

[Mark Pettit]

You know what? I try to tell it like it is.
I love FIRST as much as anyone. They do 99% of what they do better than what I would ever expect. However, if one of the members of my team or if I have a gripe about something FIRST-related, CD is the first place I come to vent and see if other people have the same or similar issue.
The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST. I get flamed regularly when I make even the slightest criticism of FIRST, and God forbid if I should use any hint of facetiousness in my post because every zealot and his/her team knows that FIRST only lends itself to the most serious gracious professionals.
I believe that a forum should be open to all schools of thought and means of expressing them. If my tongue is in my cheek at times then that should be alright. Please don’t pop me in the chin to make me bite it off just because you disagree with me.
I’m as into this stuff as most of you, I can assure you, but then there are some of you who are just over the top that really need to step back, take a deep breath, and lighten up.
FIRST makes us all feel really good about ourselves the majority of the time, but that doesn’t make FIRST perfect!

[Rich Kressly]

I posted an alternate solution with an example for those who need to vent before the kickoff happened:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...40&postcount=1

Now, when you're ready to work on solving problems and move forward .... that's what CD is all about.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Mark Pettit

...
The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST....

Mark,

I see your point and I agree. BUT... ...it is possible to point in a better direction without getting flamed.

If you read my history of posts (not really recommended as brevity is not my strong point ;-) there are a LOT of "FIRST has really screwed up here" posts.

Even so, I try to temper things and to remain as contructive as I can given the points I feel need to get made.

As to humor and negativity, I basically called 99% of the readers of ChiefDelphi.com swine and got away with it without a single negative reputation point coming my way. A body of work that is generally positive and contructive plus humor builds up good will.

Joe J.

[Rocketboy]

My first FRC was the best thing that ever happened to excepting one thing: and that was my first ever solo flight as an airplane pilot.

[dhitchco]

Folks,
this is a GREAT thread.

I suspect I'm a lot older (but maybe not wiser) than most people posting on ChiefDelphi. I very much liked Dave Laverty's response, especially

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

Some thoughts about "real world" FIRST:
1) Be thankful that we all have a GOOD, robust set of written rules and guidelines. Much of what you do in the "real world" has no rules. You have to look yourself int he mirror and make them up as you live; knowing that what you do WILL come back to haunt you sooner or later.
2) If you don't like it where you sit today, change it! We are the most "empowered" people in the entire world. We have a voice, we have a unified (somewhat) democratic, capitalistic society. We CAN change things CONSTRUCTIVELY.

So, with that said, I'd like to challenge every member in this forum (BTW; my first year ever in FRC) to do the following:
1) Put something constructive and positive in your chat signature; there's way too much garbage (or worse)
2) BEFORE you post, count to ten before you press the "submit reply" key and put yourself in the place of the thousands of readers
3) Read the FRC manual from the back to the front (twice)

LASTLY, take a deep breath and HAVE fun.....the real business world is nowhere near as much fun as FIRST......

[Dorienne]

First off, I have to make one point here before I begin my say in this. FIRST is purely for educational purposes. This program is to educate students in a variety of fields, ranging from engineering to business. It is like a big business, there will be criticism on how it is run, but guys, like it's been said before, think about it. 100 volunteers versus about 1200 teams. That's quite a big ratio. 1 volunteer per 12 teams.
These volunteers are working extremely hard in helping us all and serving us as quickly as we can. We should not be complaining about anything, considering FIRST has teams in other countries to worry about along with all the teams in the United States and Canada.
Notice how I emphasize volunteers. They are volunteering their time to help all of our students, and mentors, learn and get the best experience out of this. FIRST is an amazing program, and sometimes there are setbacks. It's a part of what the real world is like. This stuff happens. All we have to do is make the best of it and find how to come up with the best solution possible to solve our dilemma.
If you want to vent about it, put it in a journal or diary or just punch a wall. But just know that it won't solve anything.