Its getting to be RIDICULOUS!

[Aignam]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

maybe CD should open a new forum section - the scream room, where frustrated posters can vent their anger, find some symphatic shoulders to lean on for a few minutes, and then get back to work?

And disable bad reputation for that section. ::shudders at the nightmare that might ensue...::

[tribotec_ca88]

I agree...if people aren´t satisfied with what FIRST is deciding to do, the solution is simple: LEAVE. Nobody´s making them participate!!!

[shyra1353]

I completely agree with everything that has been said in the thread so far.

I just want to add this:

First off, its been said before, but FIRST is doing the best they can, and personally i think they are doing a great job.

but whats not OK it to attack FIRST, to insinuate that they are incompetent, or that they dont care

i agree 150% with this. FIRST is awesome and they do care. FIRST is one of the greatest organizations out there and when you think about it, they care a great deal about what happens to each and every team there is.
I know that the Canadian Regional Director (Mark Breadner) was helping my team find sponsors in early-to mid November when we still had no money. It is people like him and the rest of the volunteers that make FIRST such a great thing to be a part of and make it so that each team is taken care of.



Second off, Chiefdelphi is a great forum and Brandon has done an awesome job in making it this awesome. However, I must say that peoples complaints about FIRST do NOT belong here. Maybe if a thread was created for members only to see .. but thats besides the point.

When you go to a company to ask for sponsorship, you give them the link to www.usfirst.org (obviously). well usfirst.org links to Chiefdelphi and why in the world would a company want to get involved in something where the participants are not happy with the organization. Granted not everyone is complaining, but when you see a few threads with complaints, from a company's perspective, FIRST is not making its participants happy.



Bottom Line: FIRST is awesome, sure they have minor problems, but they do their best to sort them out as soon as possible and I do not think that Chiefdelphi is the place for these complaints.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by tribotec_ca88

I agree...if people aren´t satisfied with what FIRST is deciding to do, the solution is simple: LEAVE. Nobody´s making them participate!!!

I don't want to pick on this one response, but it will help me illustrate a slightly different point than many of the comments so far.

I really want to hear from all those that are not satisfied with FIRST and the way things have gone so far (and may continue). I think that we should welcome the complainers, the "whiners" (yes, I have used that term), the agitators and the malcontents.

FIRST knows that there are problems with the implementation of the competition this year (as there have been in every prior year). The fact that there are areas in which to improve is a surprise to no one. But it is harder to understand the relative importance of these items from the perspective of the teams, and sorting the items important to the teams from those important to the internal operations of FIRST.

This is where the feedback from the "complainers" become critical. It is largely because of that we are able to figure out where the most aggregious errors may lie in how things are implemented, and provide meaningful information and constructive suggestions back to FIRST. I don't want you to leave - I want you to keep writing!

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

-dave

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by dlavery

.....

This is where the feedback from the "complainers" become critical. It is largely because of that we are able to figure out where the most aggregious errors may lie in how things are implemented, and provide meaningful information and constructive suggestions back to FIRST. I don't want you to leave - I want you to keep writing!

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

-dave

Better yet, while telling FIRST and others how things might be done better, VOLUNTEER to help make it happen and then DO what you said you would. Help once or twice and show you're good at whatever it is, and the next thing you know, you'll be in charge and you can do it your way.

Now there's a scary thought....

[Mark Pettit]

You know what? I try to tell it like it is.
I love FIRST as much as anyone. They do 99% of what they do better than what I would ever expect. However, if one of the members of my team or if I have a gripe about something FIRST-related, CD is the first place I come to vent and see if other people have the same or similar issue.
The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST. I get flamed regularly when I make even the slightest criticism of FIRST, and God forbid if I should use any hint of facetiousness in my post because every zealot and his/her team knows that FIRST only lends itself to the most serious gracious professionals.
I believe that a forum should be open to all schools of thought and means of expressing them. If my tongue is in my cheek at times then that should be alright. Please don’t pop me in the chin to make me bite it off just because you disagree with me.
I’m as into this stuff as most of you, I can assure you, but then there are some of you who are just over the top that really need to step back, take a deep breath, and lighten up.
FIRST makes us all feel really good about ourselves the majority of the time, but that doesn’t make FIRST perfect!

[Rich Kressly]

I posted an alternate solution with an example for those who need to vent before the kickoff happened:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...40&postcount=1

Now, when you're ready to work on solving problems and move forward .... that's what CD is all about.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Mark Pettit

...
The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST....

Mark,

I see your point and I agree. BUT... ...it is possible to point in a better direction without getting flamed.

If you read my history of posts (not really recommended as brevity is not my strong point ;-) there are a LOT of "FIRST has really screwed up here" posts.

Even so, I try to temper things and to remain as contructive as I can given the points I feel need to get made.

As to humor and negativity, I basically called 99% of the readers of ChiefDelphi.com swine and got away with it without a single negative reputation point coming my way. A body of work that is generally positive and contructive plus humor builds up good will.

Joe J.

[Rocketboy]

My first FRC was the best thing that ever happened to excepting one thing: and that was my first ever solo flight as an airplane pilot.

[dhitchco]

Folks,
this is a GREAT thread.

I suspect I'm a lot older (but maybe not wiser) than most people posting on ChiefDelphi. I very much liked Dave Laverty's response, especially

My only request is that everyone provides their feedback ("complaints"? "whines"? "kvetches"?) in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner without personal attacks, diatribes, massive flames, late-night rants, or tantrums. Talk to FIRST the way you would like someone to talk to you. You can disagree, but be courteous. If we all act like adults, then FIRST will be able to respond to us as adults, and we will all help build a better program. But definitely keep the feedback coming!

Some thoughts about "real world" FIRST:
1) Be thankful that we all have a GOOD, robust set of written rules and guidelines. Much of what you do in the "real world" has no rules. You have to look yourself int he mirror and make them up as you live; knowing that what you do WILL come back to haunt you sooner or later.
2) If you don't like it where you sit today, change it! We are the most "empowered" people in the entire world. We have a voice, we have a unified (somewhat) democratic, capitalistic society. We CAN change things CONSTRUCTIVELY.

So, with that said, I'd like to challenge every member in this forum (BTW; my first year ever in FRC) to do the following:
1) Put something constructive and positive in your chat signature; there's way too much garbage (or worse)
2) BEFORE you post, count to ten before you press the "submit reply" key and put yourself in the place of the thousands of readers
3) Read the FRC manual from the back to the front (twice)

LASTLY, take a deep breath and HAVE fun.....the real business world is nowhere near as much fun as FIRST......

[Dorienne]

First off, I have to make one point here before I begin my say in this. FIRST is purely for educational purposes. This program is to educate students in a variety of fields, ranging from engineering to business. It is like a big business, there will be criticism on how it is run, but guys, like it's been said before, think about it. 100 volunteers versus about 1200 teams. That's quite a big ratio. 1 volunteer per 12 teams.
These volunteers are working extremely hard in helping us all and serving us as quickly as we can. We should not be complaining about anything, considering FIRST has teams in other countries to worry about along with all the teams in the United States and Canada.
Notice how I emphasize volunteers. They are volunteering their time to help all of our students, and mentors, learn and get the best experience out of this. FIRST is an amazing program, and sometimes there are setbacks. It's a part of what the real world is like. This stuff happens. All we have to do is make the best of it and find how to come up with the best solution possible to solve our dilemma.
If you want to vent about it, put it in a journal or diary or just punch a wall. But just know that it won't solve anything.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Mark Pettit

You know what? I try to tell it like it is. I love FIRST as much as anyone. They do 99% of what they do better than what I would ever expect. However, if one of the members of my team or if I have a gripe about something FIRST-related, CD is the first place I come to vent and see if other people have the same or similar issue.

The problem is that overzealousness abounds in FIRST. I get flamed regularly when I make even the slightest criticism of FIRST, and God forbid if I should use any hint of facetiousness in my post because every zealot and his/her team knows that FIRST only lends itself to the most serious gracious professionals.

I believe that a forum should be open to all schools of thought and means of expressing them. If my tongue is in my cheek at times then that should be alright. Please don’t pop me in the chin to make me bite it off just because you disagree with me.

I’m as into this stuff as most of you, I can assure you, but then there are some of you who are just over the top that really need to step back, take a deep breath, and lighten up.

FIRST makes us all feel really good about ourselves the majority of the time, but that doesn’t make FIRST perfect!

I would just ask that you consider the following two points.

There is a world of difference between true "constructive criticism" and "coming here to vent." The former makes an observation about an issue in a manner that is intended to educate, enlighten, inform, and lead to a solution. It is designed to respect both the seriousness of the issues, and the dignity of the other party. Done properly, it results in a problem being recognized and acknowledged as an issue worthy of discussion, and hopefully of resolution.

The latter does nothing but expose others to the content of someone's spleen, and frequently results in an ugly, smelly mess. The only person to walk away from the experience with any satisfaction is the venter, while the "ventee" and all innocent bystanders have the feeling of being crapped upon. Personally, I find it very difficult to make any effort at all to see someone else's point of view if they start the conversation by doing this to me. I have always found that this is the least effective manner available to get a problem resolved.

On the second point, we must remember that it is very difficult for others to discern when reading a text narrative if the author is typing the message with tongue planted firmly in cheek, flailing madly at the keyboard in emotional distress, or even sitting around in their underwear while typing, unless the author makes it abundantly clear. If we are having fun with a topic, that is perfectly acceptable - as long as it is very clear to those on the other end of the forum that that is what is occurring. Properly expressing humor, or sarcasm, or serious concern, through just the use of the written word is difficult. Authors must remember that they cannot make use of vocal intonations, facial expressions, verbal cadence, or any of a huge number of verbal and non-verbal cues that we use to communicate emotion and tone. As authors of a message, it is our job to ensure that the proper message gets through to the reader. If the average reader cannot identify wondrous prose as a great example of fine wit, and instead decodes the narrative as bilious babble, then is the fault with the reader or the author?

-dave

[Jaine Perotti]

FIRST does many many wonderful things. It has inspired, motivated, and changed the lives of many adults and students for the better. For me, the FIRST experience has transcended above all of the other extracurriculars I've ever been involved in. In fact, I don't even consider FIRST to be an extracurricular anymore; it is a way of life.

However, as with any aspect of life, FIRST grows and changes. FIRST's mission has always been to inspire young people to have a greater appreciation and understanding of science and technology. So far, they have been quite successful in that mission. But in continuing to provide these wonderful opportunities, FIRST must try to implement better methods of doing so. Just as we try to improve our robots every season, FIRST tries to improve the experience that it gives to us every year.

In designing robots, we make hypotheses about what mechanical, electrical, or coding system will work the best. We use all our knowledge of these disciplines to help us take an educated guess at what will give us the desired results. But we can never really know what the outcome will be, until we test the robot in competition. Sometimes robots will perform beautifully, and do what they were expected to do without a hitch. But other times (and we have all experienced this), our design hypothesis turns out to be flawed, and we must start back at square one to reflect on what went wrong ...and consequently redesign.

Analogous to this is the 'design' of FIRST itself. All of the dedicated individuals who are a part of FIRST want to make it even better than it already is. They come up with a 'hypothesis' for success, just as we come up with a 'hypothesis' for our robot design. FIRST tries to improve yearly, and often FIRST is successful. But other times, FIRST may make an incorrect hypothesis, and things may not turn out as smoothly as we would all like them to be.

When a team's robot turns out to have an unsuccessful design, one thing I never see at competitions are people being negative toward that team; no booing, no ridiculing, no negative comments. This is because of the spirit of gracious professionalism: an underlying element of the FIRST experience. I see people willing to reach out to the teams who have been unsuccessful. People who understand what it means to be constructive and give advice to improve their robot 'hypotheses'. People who recognize the importance of making the FIRST Robotics Competition more dynamic, inspiring, ...and fun. People who we should try to emulate.

If only more people could have the same attitude toward FIRST as they do toward their fellow teams!
Just like we give constructive feedback to those who are less experienced at robot design, we should be giving constructive feedback to FIRST! Just as it is unacceptable to be negative and demeaning to the less outstanding teams at a competition, it is unacceptable to be negative and demeaning to FIRST when they turn out to be wrong.

We all know that nothing gets done when all you do is trash talk another team. We should also realize that we will not help to improve FIRST by dismissing something as "stupid" or "bad" without offering a better solution. It is time we start applying the principles of GP found at competitions ...to our own conduct outside the competition. Be constructive! Offer input that will help FIRST improve! Let them know what they are doing wrong in a respectful manner; that way they will be even more willing to listen to you. This is what we do when we help each other... so lets start doing this when we want to help FIRST!


-- Jaine

[Adam Y.]

Personally the one thing that I hate is that some of the critisism has been really misguided. Smeone said that the competition is an old rehash of other competitions and no self respecting engnineer would want to reinvent the wheel. This is fairly scary because I can cite about a million reasons why this isn't true and is a gross misrepresentation of the field.

[JoeXIII'007]

I definitely agree, it is getting rediculous. I'll be honest, there are many things that I believe have gone wrong, but does that mean I should EXPECT that it gets fixed immediately, or blast FIRST for it, no. For I fully understand, that even though that FIRST is a 14+ year old organization, the number really doesn't matter. FIRST has been and will continue to be a work in progress as all other things in life are.

Dave,

Thanks for opening the door for criticism, just as long as you aren't the only one taking it.

My team has come to the general consensus that FIRST's holy grail, Gracious Professionalism, has been literally put to the side in this year's game. The rules proove it.

Originally Posted by Rules - Section 4 <G25>

<G25> Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not
in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. However, Triple Play is a highly interactive
contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the
tipping, entanglement, or damage occurs where it is not a part of normal game play, at the referee’s discretion,
the offending team/ROBOT may be disqualified from that match. Repeated offenses could result in a
team/ROBOT being disqualified from the remainder of the Regional or Championship competition.
Examples of normal game play interaction include:
•Pushing low on another ROBOT.
•Blocking or pushing on a TETRA that is in possession of an opposing ROBOT.
•Establishing ROBOT position to block access to a GOAL by an opposing ROBOT.
•Using an arm or gripper to prevent an opposing ROBOT from placing a TETRA on a GOAL.

It is in the opinion of myself and other members of my team, that even pushing low, blocking, etc. is a bit questionable. As an example, at nationals last year in a Curie Division qualifying match, there was a robot (who I will not reveal any information about) that kept on pushing us to the point we were driven out of bounds. Sure they were pushing low, not ramming, but the point is this: 'pushing low on another robot' has very broad meaning, such as the example above. Try and get even more specific. Your video showing a sample match for this game is a great example of how the above could happen.

I really hope that this doesn't repeat anything, or sound a bit weak, but these are just the thoughts of my team and I. Thanks.