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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2004, 02:29
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Re: Vacuum

To clarify, you cannot use an off the shelf vacuum. My team comtimplated this last year, and found that it was in fact illegal. Instead, we bought a festo suction cup, which created suction through a vacuum. Now I know this contradicts what I said, but it was not in fact a vacuum. We simply used 2 of the largest cylinders we could get (I think it was a 2" bore?), we used 1 to raise our arm, and the other cylinder was right next to it, with it's output valve connected to the cup. So simply, when you move the arm down, it created a vacuum/suction in the cup. However, you cannot keep constant pressure like this, so you basically had to keep pumping the arm up and down to keep the suction. I'm assuming you want to create some sort of vacuum to grip onto the big ball, and without using an actual vacuum, this simply isn't possible.
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Unread 17-01-2004, 10:04
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Re: Vacuum

That is exactly what we have done, and were planning to do from the beggining.
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Unread 17-01-2004, 10:29
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Re: Vacuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRemorse
That is exactly what we have done, and were planning to do from the beggining.
Just a word to the wise about sucking on the HDPE. Its nearly impossible after the rough gameplay scratches the nice smooth surface......we had this ahppen and ruin a sub system.
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Unread 20-01-2004, 16:23
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Re: Vacuum

To all this year's comptetitors: This years game presents many chances to use vaccum systems or similar devices. I'll leave it to you to figure how far this can go.

Good Luck.
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Unread 20-01-2004, 16:40
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Re: Vacuum

I searched the entire set of documents FIRST gave us and the word 'vacuum' does NOT appear in any of them

creating a vacuum to pick up a ball really has nothing to do with the pnuematics FIRST supplies - the pnuematics are designed to be linear actuators to move structural components

vacuum would be used in this game to grab or attach to a ball or platform

I want to ask FIRST directly on the Q&A website about this. The robot rules say we cannot use anything else to compress air, except the compressor, but it says nothing about creating a vacuum.

There are commerical off the shelf devices that will generate a vacuum, that we could power with one of the motors in the kit of parts - as soon as I can get my hands on our teams Q&A password I will ask this question directly

"can we use commerical off the shelf devices to create a vacuum, if they are powered by one of the motors supplied in the kit of parts?"

I KNOW these were not allowed last year, but this is not last year - the rules do change from year to year, just as the game itself changes. Our team has gotten burned before for 'living in the past' - not realizing an old rule had been done away with, and we missed opportunities.
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Unread 20-01-2004, 23:02
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Re: Vacuum

Im having trouble getting our password to the FIRST Q&A site - can someone please post this question to them?

____________________________________________
The word 'vacuum' does NOT appear in any section of the 2004 manual. Generating a vacuum is not really a pnuematics application.
Can we use commerical off the shelf devices to create a vacuum, if they are powered by one of the motors supplied in the kit of parts?
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Unread 21-01-2004, 22:14
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Re: Vacuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
Im having trouble getting our password to the FIRST Q&A site - can someone please post this question to them?

____________________________________________
The word 'vacuum' does NOT appear in any section of the 2004 manual. Generating a vacuum is not really a pnuematics application.
Can we use commerical off the shelf devices to create a vacuum, if they are powered by one of the motors supplied in the kit of parts?
____________________________________________
If you follow the flow chart on page 10 of the section 5, "The Robot" and answer truthfully you will end up at the bottom box "No it may not be used." You will branch off at "pnuematics/ Hydraulics" or even further down under additional electronics "Is it a ...or pump?"
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  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2004, 06:57
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Re: Vacuum

I have noticed that on the 2X balls that there are ridges on the surface. Wouldn't this make suction cupping and/or vacuuming the 2X balls very difficult? In 2000, our team attempted to do something similar and tested this out. We were not able to properly suction the cups onto the 30" inflated balls because the ridges prevented the suction cup to create a seal. So the air continuously escape. I am pretty sure that the balls this year are very similar to the ones used in 2000, and if your team is considering on sucking the 2X balls with a vacuum/suction cup mechanism, I highly suggest testing this out before considering purchasing all the parts needed to assemble or create this device.
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Unread 22-01-2004, 09:24
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Re: Vacuum

Al S. the restriction flowchart depends on whether you consider a vaccum mechanism to be pneumatics or not, and whether the 'pump' has a motor attached, or is strictly a mechanical device that you drive with one of the motors that FIRST has supplied.

Since we are allowed to build a vacuum pump with a cylinder and two flow restriction valves (they act as one way valves when closed all the way) - I cant see any reason why they wouldnt allow us to purchase a commercial device that does the same thing.

We got a couple suction cup devices from our sponsors factory floor, and when you hook them up to a commercial vacuum pump, it DOES hold the 2X ball very nicely - the ridges cause it to leak air a little - thats why you need a continuously running pump to make our little scheme work - we still have some more testing to do, but so far it looks like a viable option.

Our teams point of contact still hasnt found the Q&A password in the TIMS system yet - so if someone could still post my question (in my last post) I will buy you a cookie when I meet you at a regional :c)
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Unread 22-01-2004, 11:38
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Re: Vacuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
We got a couple suction cup devices from our sponsors factory floor, and when you hook them up to a commercial vacuum pump, it DOES hold the 2X ball very nicely - the ridges cause it to leak air a little - thats why you need a continuously running pump to make our little scheme work - we still have some more testing to do, but so far it looks like a viable option.
Good job!

I am not sure if it is me, but it seems like there is a lot to manage with this suctioncup/vacuumed device on an arm (probably telescoping) for this robot if you guys plan on using it to cap a goal. This would be a pretty nice robot to build, but that seems like a lot of motors, and power used during a single match. You also have the weight limit and power management to consider. I am not saying to shoot down this idea, but there will be a lot of testing for this type of robot. Unless you guys has come up with a very effect way to integrate everything together. Then again, a "swiss-army-knife" type of robot never does very well during competition. If you really want the robot to be the best at capping goals with the 2X balls, then go right ahead.

Good luck to teams going for this design.
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Unread 22-01-2004, 12:34
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Re: Vacuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
Al S. the restriction flowchart depends on whether you consider a vaccum mechanism to be pneumatics or not, and whether the 'pump' has a motor attached, or is strictly a mechanical device that you drive with one of the motors that FIRST has supplied.
Ken,
I think you answered your own question here. If you go through the flowchart, following your lead that the vacuum is pnuematics, then you can't progress past the following question..."Is it an air cylinder ordered from the Custom Cylinder Order Form or any previous year’s pneumatic component except storage tanks, pressure switches or pressure regulators ?" Your answer is NO and that makes it an illegal part.
Sorry.
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