pic: 100% Student Built

[briholton]

It is unfortunate to see that people are saying that FIRST does not appreciate the 100% student built robot and believes that there must be engineers/mentors in there building it "for you" and with you. Personally I think this is a great idea (the with part), but FIRST means different things in different parts of the country and different socio-economic areas. Finding willing engineers in some urban areas is nearly impossible, as i suspect it is in some rural areas. Of course a mixture is best in theory - but in real life - in REAL LIFE ENGINEERING (which this is for those of you who say "well REAL engineers...." you make due with what you have - you solve the problem with the boundry conditions that are imposed.

Personally I find it distasteful to see teams with factory built robots that the kids barely see before the competition - this is clearly not the spirit of FIRST - I am not sure who those teams inspire except the corporate folks. On the other hand, I do not believe a robot can be built 100% by high school students - it just can't be. And I can get no argument over that because if you are reading this, then you are part of a group that is not 100% students composed and you are probably getting advice and giving it, so you robot is NOT 100% student "built". I mean, does an engineer have to be right next to you turning the wrench to qualify as participating? I don't think so. Certainly there is a nice midway point that is marvelous, but that point changes depending on the people involved and the situation. Seems to me that if FIRST is really acting the way some of you have outlined, they need to open their eyes to the bigger picture and remember what F.I.R.S.T. stands for.

Oh, and kudos to any team that has a large portion of their robot built by students! I think part of why they are so proud is that they are saying HEY - we built this - not a bunch of professionals that handed it to us already done. And heck, we have been inspired!!!

[David Kelly]

A lot of people have VERY big misconseptions about the teams who have very beautifuly engineered and built machines that are sponsored by big manufacturing companies. Name me one team that is basically a "factory built robot" as what you described. I guarentee you cannot do that.

Originally Posted by briholton

It is unfortunate to see that people are saying that FIRST does not appreciate the 100% student built robot and believes that there must be engineers/mentors in there building it "for you" and with you. Personally I think this is a great idea (the with part), but FIRST means different things in different parts of the country and different socio-economic areas. Finding willing engineers in some urban areas is nearly impossible, as i suspect it is in some rural areas. Of course a mixture is best in theory - but in real life - in REAL LIFE ENGINEERING (which this is for those of you who say "well REAL engineers...." you make due with what you have - you solve the problem with the boundry conditions that are imposed.

Personally I find it distasteful to see teams with factory built robots that the kids barely see before the competition - this is clearly not the spirit of FIRST - I am not sure who those teams inspire except the corporate folks. On the other hand, I do not believe a robot can be built 100% by high school students - it just can't be. And I can get no argument over that because if you are reading this, then you are part of a group that is not 100% students composed and you are probably getting advice and giving it, so you robot is NOT 100% student "built". I mean, does an engineer have to be right next to you turning the wrench to qualify as participating? I don't think so. Certainly there is a nice midway point that is marvelous, but that point changes depending on the people involved and the situation. Seems to me that if FIRST is really acting the way some of you have outlined, they need to open their eyes to the bigger picture and remember what F.I.R.S.T. stands for.

Oh, and kudos to any team that has a large portion of their robot built by students! I think part of why they are so proud is that they are saying HEY - we built this - not a bunch of professionals that handed it to us already done. And heck, we have been inspired!!!

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Name me one team that is basically a "factory built robot" as what you described. I guarentee you cannot do that.

I can name a few that seem very very well done that, to me, still has that factory fresh new car smell to them. But will I? No. Why? This topic has been beaten to death before, and we should stop it from happening again. The only thing this does is hurt people's feelings and cause problems between teams that shouldn't be there.

[David Kelly]

Originally Posted by JosephM

I can name a few that seem very very well done that, to me, still has that factory fresh new car smell to them. But will I? No. Why? This topic has been beaten to death before, and we should stop it from happening again. The only thing this does is hurt people's feelings and cause problems between teams that shouldn't be there.

Because it smells like a new car does not mean it was totally factory built. Many teams are lucky enough to build in their sponsor's factories and have access to great machinery. Dont accuse any team unless you know ALL FACTS. There are lots of rumors that go around about teams and how they build their robots that are totally untrue and have no basis to them.

Please dont accuse or say how a robot is built unless you know what really happens and you have facts.

[Stu Bloom]

Woah ... calm down Dave. I didn't see any specific accusations. And I would be willing to bet that, out of almost 1000 active teams, there are at least a small number who do fit this description. In fact I personally know one alumnus of a team who told me that the students don't touch the robot until it is time to drive. My personal preference is that a large percentage of students have significant hands-on robot design/build time, but I'm sure the kids on that team (especially judging from my contact) are also very inspired about futures in engineering and technology ... which is what FIRST is all about.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

Sorry to do this ... but I really can't believe no-one else beat me to it ...

WHERE'S YOUR SAFETY GLASSES ??

On the forehead, where they obviously do the most good!


I know of a few teams that activly say that they inspire by show the kids what is possible, and adults build the entire thing.
I know of a few teams that activly design with just students.
I know the vast majority of teams falls somewhere in the middle.
I know of a lot of teams that give CAD drawings to a shop, and get back CNC'd parts.
I know a lot of teams that build their robot with nothing more then hand tools.

There are many diffrent teams, and just as many diffrent ways to build a robot.

Wetzel

[Rickertsen2]

When I saw this posted yesterday, the first thing i thought was "I wonder how long it will take the flame war to start". I'm surprised it has stayed even the least bit civilixed. I guess everyone is tired of arguing this topic.

[Aignam]

You can build an effective robot with hand tools in a basement and be inspired.

You can build an effective robot with expensive machinery at a sponsor's shop with the help of mentors, assisting wherever possible, and be inspired.

FIRST is inspiration. No matter how you do it, you learn something. Stop being silly. Stop making accusations. Go build robots. Now.

[Rickertsen2]

Originally Posted by Aignam

You can build an effective robot with hand tools in a basement and be inspired.

You can build an effective robot with expensive machinery at a sponsor's shop with the help of mentors, assisting wherever possible, and be inspired.

FIRST is inspiration. No matter how you do it, you learn something. Stop being silly. Stop making accusations. Go build robots. Now.

agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Matt Reiland]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

I'm sorry but real engineers that work at big manufacturing corporations harldy if ever get to touch a machine. All most of them do is draw and plan out everything for a part and/ or a system. They leave the actual machining to the union and blue collar workers.

If most people only knew how true this is for most industries. In a modern Big 3 assembly plant, an can design, program and debug, but a millwright, WEMR, toolmaker, or electrician would do any task even remotely similar to building a robot.

[briholton]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

A lot of people have VERY big misconseptions about the teams who have very beautifuly engineered and built machines that are sponsored by big manufacturing companies. Name me one team that is basically a "factory built robot" as what you described. I guarentee you cannot do that.

i certainly can, but i am not about to do that in a public forum to embarass the team. And i am sorry, but i do not have big misconceptions on that matter - a few years ago i asked one team member - a student - about their robot and how it was constructed. He said he didn't know because the first time they saw it was when it was uncrated at the regionals.

Originally Posted by briholton

He said he didn't know because the first time they saw it was when it was uncrated at the regionals.

How do you know that was the case for his entire team? Maybe he just had bad attendence during the build season or some other reason that he didn't point out. I wouldn't trust the word of one team member on something like that. I don't doubt that something like that exists, but I'd check into it some more before I would go off believing that.

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I’m personally more favored to the engineering assisted team, but I’m going to put that aside for a second to say this:

I don’t understand why it should matter if your robot is 100% student built, 100% engineer built or somewhere in between. As long as you are Inspired (I word again) FIRST is getting its point and primary goal across.

[briholton]

Originally Posted by D.J. Fluck

How do you know that was the case for his entire team? Maybe he just had bad attendence during the build season or some other reason that he didn't point out. I wouldn't trust the word of one team member on something like that. I don't doubt that something like that exists, but I'd check into it some more before I would go off believing that.

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I’m personally more favored to the engineering assisted team, but I’m going to put that aside for a second to say this:

I don’t understand why it should matter if your robot is 100% student built, 100% engineer built or somewhere in between. As long as you are Inspired (I word again) FIRST is getting its point and primary goal across.

i appreciate your wisdom in telling me how to assure my data..... however, i did - i talked to the guys that built it. they agreed that that is what happened. such is life.

[Amanda Morrison]

Whereas these types of teams may or may not happen is not the point of this thread, nor is accusing a team or redeeming them. We all know the argument, we've all heard accusations, and we all have differing opinions. Please be tactful and respectful, both to each other, and everyone reading these forums. I'm sorry to spoil any ongoing arguments, but feel free to continue this in a PM.

This is a thread about a team that is building their robot themselves, and it's very commendable. While I agree with DJ, that the inspiration from peers in this program is very important, at the same time a student can gain a sense of pride in craftsmanship and also experience and deal with errors and problems head-on. All the mentors in the world don't do a darn thing if you don't learn anything from them. While maybe it's not ideal to some people, to others it may suit. With engineer mentorship or not, you're seeing a successful FIRST team, and that's all that matters.

[Ken Leung]

Please be careful about turning this thread into "should robot be built by 100% student", then to "there shouldn't be engineers on FIRST team building the robot", and finally "the point of FIRST is supposed to be... "

We have been through that thousands of times before, among different topics. Most of them ended up becoming accusation and bashing. There is no need for that. Tell people how successful your team is, demonstrate how it is effective for YOUR school, and learn to listen other's point of view. And understand that no one way will work for every team. OK? ;-)