Collaboration..

[Brandon Martus]

We are asking that all discussion of collaboration be put on hold for a little while. We may start up a moderated discussion a little later on, but for now let's talk about other things.

The debate that was mentioned here last night, and for most of today, has been canceled. Keep an eye out for a place (moderated forum, possibly) to discuss this and other hot topics.

Thanks.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Brandon Martus

The debate that was mentioned here last night, and for most of today, has been canceled. Keep an eye out for a place (moderated forum, possibly) to discuss this and other hot topics.

Thanks.

This should go without saying, but censorship is bad. A special forum for such topics is okay. A moderated one? Not so much.

[Tuba4]

Since the collaboration thread was closed Tuesday night, how then did a member of team 254 post the last word? Stud Man Dan was the last person on before it was "closed". I tried to post shortly after the Stud Man and it had been closed by then. I got a daily notification just this morning that there had been another post to the thread. It seems it is closed to some then but not to all?

[Brandon Martus]

That post was in another thread, that got dismantled/removed. I put the post on the end of that thread, to combine all discussion into one place.

[Tuba4]

My apologies. I did not mean to insinuate favoritism. That thread truly had run it's course. Everybody has an opinion. But in truth, the only opinion that matters is the official one from FIRST. And since the question was finally posted to the Q & A system, it is only a matter of time....

BTW You do a great job with the forums.

[Ben.V.293]

what kind of forum web site is this when a good topic of debate comes up it is shut down? I loved following the thread and the opinions of the people in it for the few short days it was up. Why would there be any reason at all to shut down such an interesting thread? What ever happended to free speach and the right to your own opinion? and if this thread is reopened in a moderated version than that would be just plain rediculous. Its not like people in the thread were insulting or threating each other. Why would there be a need for a moderator anyway? and another thing, i have seen posts delibretly altered by you (yes i mean you brandon martus) to change the opinion the post displays from that of the writer to your own opinions. Isn't that a little illegal there buddy? some things about this site just don't make sense to me. please reopen this thread and never shut down another thread for such reasons ever again. Now that i said something bad about this site im sure my precious single reputation point is down the drain and the chiefdelphi hit squad is heading twoards my house right now but i just can't stand back and say nothing when theres something to be said.

[Ben.V.293]

Originally Posted by Tuba4

My apologies. I did not mean to insinuate favoritism. That thread truly had run it's course. Everybody has an opinion. But in truth, the only opinion that matters is the official one from FIRST. And since the question was finally posted to the Q & A system, it is only a matter of time....

BTW You do a great job with the forums.

what the hell are you talking about when you say that the only opionion that matters is that of FIRST. are you stupid or something? EVERYONES opinion matters. I truly hate this site and all of the people that post on it. when dean and woody started this organization im sure they did not expect to create a whole community of nice ninkempoops that constantly blabber about gracious profesionalism and immediatly shoot down anyone who has an opinion other than that of their own. i said it before and i'll say it again EVERYONE has the right to their own opinion and 95% of the people on this site have to chill out and lighten up a little

[Ken Leung]

I've always thought that people shouldn't tell others what to do when they are not willing to do the same thing. Since you feel so strongly about everyone's opinion, I wonder why you are judging other's opinion so critically and calling them stupid? Do you truely believe people want to listen to you when you are using words like "hell", "stupid", and "hate"? That sound very emotional to me. I cannot understand how you can tell people to "chill out and lighten up a little" when you are not doing that yourself.

Putting aside the way you wrote your message (because I believe people's attitude and facts should be considered seperately), it is my opinion to disagree with your statement that there is no need for moderation in the thread you are talking about. If you pay attention to it, you would notice there were a lot of posts calling others cheaters, and a lot of claims that are simply untrue, and have no evidence to back them up. I would like to quote Stevek from 254 in his message:

"When looking at some posts of those assigned the “con” side of the proposed “debate” – we realize that many statements have been for neither discussion nor debate, rather they have been statements of assumption, attack and accusation that unfairly slander our teams. As all our actions and intentions have been within the exiting FIRST rules, it troubles us that these people have used words like “cheat”, “broken rules”, and have implied our teams have “not been straight” about our goals. This is not only hurtful to us mentors, but more importantly to our students. Statements like these show very little knowledge of our teams, are unfounded, unfair, and ungracious – and clearly show us that continuing a “debate” would mean we would either need to lower ourselves to that level or defend ourselves against baseless and incorrect claims."

It is my opinion that this forum serve the community best when the discussion is constructive. In this case, I do not believe the discussion was organized enough to serve that purpose.

A lot of time have been spent writing messages in this thread when the teams really need to spend that time to finish their robots. That's why we should respect the teams' request to not participate in the debate. When build period is over, maybe we can consider opening up the debate again so everything can benefit from a constructive discussion by both sides, and form their own opinion about this topic base on facts and objective discussion.

This website is created to help FIRST participants connect with each other through the internet, but it is not the only place to do so. If you truely believe there should be more discussion you truely feel passionate about, then maybe you should start your own forum/e-mails and invite others to participant in that discussion with you.

[Crop-Circles]

Originally Posted by Ben.V.293

what the hell are you talking about when you say that the only opionion that matters is that of FIRST. are you stupid or something? EVERYONES opinion matters. I truly hate this site and all of the people that post on it.

FIRST has the final say on if this is illegal or not. Therefor, our opinions, while being valuable to the FIRST community and our teams, do not effect this particular subject. You can have your opinion and post it if you like, but when opinions turn into attacks, they stop being helpful. Besides, if you hate this site so much, then why are you posting here? I agree that if something that needs to be said isn't being said, you should post. But only in a constructive and professional way.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Ben.V.293

Why would there be any reason at all to shut down such an interesting thread? What ever happended to free speach and the right to your own opinion? and if this thread is reopened in a moderated version than that would be just plain rediculous. Its not like people in the thread were insulting or threating each other.

The thread was shut down for good reasons. People were getting a bit out of control, calling good teams cheaters and saying slanderous things. Actually, things got so out of control so quickly during a time when many moderators did not notice the thread getting ridiculous. 60 and 254 were being straightforward and upfront on everything, and they got slapped around for it many times. That is unfortunate. Personally, I am sorry that I didn't catch it earlier and tried to help stop the action.

As for the site, you can't just post what you want on here. This is ChiefDelphi's site, and Brandon is in control as webmaster. You need to back off. There is no illegality of censorship here. Get a clue.

Originally Posted by Ben.V.293

I truly hate this site and all of the people that post on it.

That is just lovely. This will make us all respect your opinion greatly. So why do you waste your time posting on here if you feel this way?

Andy B.

[Brandon Martus]

95% of the people on this site have to chill out and lighten up a little

Yes, you do.

[Brandon Martus]

Originally Posted by Ben.V.293

and another thing, i have seen posts delibretly altered by you (yes i mean you brandon martus) to change the opinion the post displays from that of the writer to your own opinions.

Send me a PM with an example. I don't remember doing so, but I could be wrong.

Isn't that a little illegal there buddy?

Not according to the rules (that you agreed to), it isn't.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Ben.V.293

what the hell are you talking about when you say that the only opionion that matters is that of FIRST. are you stupid or something? EVERYONES opinion matters. I truly hate this site and all of the people that post on it. when dean and woody started this organization im sure they did not expect to create a whole community of nice ninkempoops that constantly blabber about gracious profesionalism and immediatly shoot down anyone who has an opinion other than that of their own. i said it before and i'll say it again EVERYONE has the right to their own opinion and 95% of the people on this site have to chill out and lighten up a little

The Constitution gives you the right to say whatever you want to, within limits (e.g. you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre just for fun). But that right applies to public speech, and preventing the government from interferring with that ability. However, this is a private forum, and reasonable restrictions on tone, behavior and content CAN be enforced. When you participate in this forum, you agree to abide by the "rules of the road" and behave as a reasonable member of this community.

We are all free to disagree with each other, and engage in a reasonable debate. You have an absolute right to your opinion. If you choose to state it clearly, and in a manner than does not violate the standards of decorum, then you are welcome to take advantage of the forum provided by Delphi for such exchanges.

But the standards of behavior here are very clear. If the tone of the messages cross over from a reasonable, articulate debate or constructive criticism into personal attacks, insulting drivel or vituperative bile then you have gone too far. At that point, Delphi has the absolute right to regulate what is posted on their web site in whatever manner they see fit. And the rest of us have the absolute right to ignore whatever we want to.

Remember that what you do here, and what you say here, reflects on you, your team, your school, and your organization. Does the message quoted above, with the phrasing you have used, generate the sort of impression that you want this community to have of you (and your team)? When we all see Team 293 in competition, should your message be the last impression we have in our heads regarding how your team behaves?

-dave

[Carlo]

If I can just propose that this discussion end, I would much appreciate it. The majority of us agree with what is going on in regards to the thread being shut down, and we are patiently awaiting FIRST's final words. Let us not waste our time replying to posts within this thread, as more than likely we will not agree with them. I am asking this thread be shut down, as it is not important to the robotics realm.

Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, but I felt this was an unnecessary portion of Delphi's forums to read. I refuse to comment on the above arguments however, as I feel they could be taken on with private messages versus an open debate.

We all make mistakes at times, and slip with things that we say. Lets just move on and forget about this instead of turning it into another lengthy thread. Lets not drag this out.

-Carlo Jr.

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by Carlo

I am asking this thread be shut down...
...Lets not drag this out.

Why is it that whenever a thread starts to get interesting, it is shut down? I understand the balance between the right to free speech and an editor or moderator's responsibility to maintain an appropriate atmosphere, but it seems like there have to be better ways to handle it than to lock down a thread.

I see nothing wrong with moderating a specific thread, not to weed out ideas, but to establish an appropriate tone and curb offensive behavior. Another option would be to forbid people from posting in a thread or posting without review if their behavior is unacceptable. This is not censorship in any meaningful sense, especially if the moderators are of the caliber we've seen around here. It's a time out, which won't be so bad if the thread stays open. It gives those who get too excited a chance to cool off, and find a way to express themselves in a manner in tune with the community that they're a part of.

Something like this has to be going on already - for the thread to be shut down there has to have been many deleted posts that were over the line. Most of the stuff in there is good discussion.


/edit: a defnintion that was useful to me:

vituperative - marked by harshly abusive criticism; "his scathing remarks about silly lady novelists"; "her vituperative railing"