Go to Post In my opinion, leaders do not need to be picked. They naturally emerge as time goes on and as more opportunities are presented to them. - Alex Golec [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2004, 20:57
Brandon Martus's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Brandon Martus Brandon Martus is offline
busy.
AKA: B. Slash Kamen
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Nevada, TX USA
Posts: 5,271
Brandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Brandon Martus Send a message via AIM to Brandon Martus Send a message via Yahoo to Brandon Martus
[moderated] Collaboration

FIRST ruled. People want to discuss. Reply to this thread, all responses are moderated and may take a little while to show up (if they show up, at all).

This thread should discuss the general idea of collaboration, and not specific teams or people. Gracious professionalism applies, as usual.

---

Quote:
Q: If high school students on my team make parts for another team, does the team receiving the parts need to bill out our high school students at a typical labor rate as part of the $3,500 limit?

A: Gracious professionalism, "coopetition" and collaboration are some of the hallmarks of FIRST. We have all been amazed at the level that FIRST teams aid each other - not just at competitions, but throughout the year. By working together, we have increased our effectiveness inspiring youth and recognizing the value of science and technology. For the case when one team assists another team, this is viewed as "coopetition" - teams helping each other inspire youth. Of course, teams that work together must adhere to the FIRST Rules. In this case, several rules are directly / indirectly related to your question: <R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the 2004 team after the Kickoff; <R68> Additional Parts must be generally available from suppliers such that any other FIRST team, if desires, may also obtain them at the same price (a specific device fabricated by a team from non-2004 Kit materials does not have to be available to others, however, the materials it is made from must be available to other teams). <R73> The cost of all non-2004 Kit parts and materials used in the construction of a robot must be recorded (in US$) by the team, and a list of all such items and their costs made available during robot inspection. <R74> All costs are to be determined as explained in the cost determination section. 5.3.2.2 Cost Determination. To account for the value of cases when one team donates material to another team, if the donating team members or sponsors do the work without any associated labor costs, that labor is not considered as a cost to the team receiving the donated material. The cost of the raw materials must however be accounted for by the team receiving the material. If the donating team does pay for outside labor, the cost of outside labor must be accounted for by the team receiving the material (along with the cost of the raw materials). We are trying to create a community where working together helps us collectively achieve our goal of inspiring and recognizing science and technology.
and...

Quote:
Q: Is collaboration between 2 teams acceptable and encouraged by FIRST?

A: Absolutely. Teams are encouraged to share their knowledge, experience, and innovations with each other on and off the play field, as well as before, during and after the competition season. Without inter-team collaborations, many of the central elements of the FIRST philosophy - such as distribution of technical innovations, team workshops, shared designs, software code-sharing, teams mentoring teams, team-run off-season events, etc. - would all be impossible. The whole concept of "coopetition" is based on the idea of teams helping each other to compete.
This was taken from the Q&A section 5.3.2.2
__________________
Brandon Martus
e-mail
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2004, 22:54
Joe Johnson's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Johnson Joe Johnson is offline
Engineer at Medrobotics
AKA: Dr. Joe
FRC #0088 (TJ2)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Raynham, MA
Posts: 2,648
Joe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I have to say that this was one of the sticker issues that FIRST has had to deal with and...

...I think they gave a pretty good answer.

The answer is clear in what it is trying to say. They give reasons. Over all, I have to say that this was a pretty good ruling.

I still have concerns about possible nightmare scenerios at some future, but we can deal with that when and if that nightmare ever starts to become a reality.

Over all. Nicely done FIRST.

Joe J.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2004, 23:14
Dan Richardson's Avatar
Dan Richardson Dan Richardson is offline
iR3 Creative
AKA: Dan Richardson
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL
Posts: 1,121
Dan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

Tho somewhat dissapointed with the descision, I still believe they gave justification for it.

FIRST is about the furthering of science and technology and in their eyes it does.

I still believe however that to keep up teams now must collaborate, or else in a sense be pushed out of any chance to win.

However its just a new avenue, nearly like everything new thing FIRST throws at us, it might not be readily accepted. It is to be taken in stride and I believe it will bring new dimmension to FIRST, and I'm excited to see where it takes us.

So all in all good job FIRST, I'm not sure where this road less traveled will take us in the coming future, but I am sure excited to find out.

Dan
__________________
CO-Founder of Robot in 3 Days and the Robot in 3 Day Challenge.


  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2004, 23:40
Greg Needel's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Greg Needel Greg Needel is offline
REVving up for a new season
FRC #2848 (All-sparks)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,108
Greg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Needel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I have been thinking a lot about this collaboration issue since the first threads were posted and have realized that this is what FIRST is all about. If you look at the games they have produced they have changed in format from every team to themselves to a complete collaboration of forces and now and alliance. I disagree with all aspects of a team’s robot being the same but at the same time I understand how input from many different sources and people who have different experiences. Take this message board for instance, at the beginning of ever season there is talk of strategies, ideas and how things will be played for that season and in a cense that is collaboration.

I guess my overall point is that collaboration is part of every aspect of FIRST and teams choose for themselves how much they wish to work with others and this is why we have such diversity in this competition


On a side note I think that the official FIRST response to the situation was very professional and a good solution to the "problem" at hand.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 09:05
Ken Loyd Ken Loyd is offline
Who is John Galt?
FRC #0039 (The 39th Aerosquadron)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 414
Ken Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to behold
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

Bravo to FIRST!

Bravo to CD!

Bravo to the bulldogs and poofs!

Bravo to the beginning of Regionals!

Let the fun Begin!

Ken Loyd
Team 64
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 12:04
Unsung FIRST Hero
Andy Grady Andy Grady is offline
I'm done being quiet!
FRC #0131
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 995
Andy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Grady has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Andy Grady
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

Here is my take...

1. I am not in favor of the decision.

2. I wasn't in favor of alliances at first either.

3. I was dead wrong about alliances.

4. Put 2 and 2 together.

Lets put it this way, Kingman and the Poofs went out on a limb to try something that could shape the future of FIRST. They faced a huge firestorm from many members of the FIRST community for their efforts. They handled themselves in a very admirable and exemplary (sp.?) way. If all the teams who collaborate in the future carry themselves like Kingman and the Poofs did...it might just work.

Finally, Kudo's to FIRST for the well thought out and explained answer. Like I said, I may not agree with the answer, but I am very happy with how FIRST handled it. I said in the past, for FIRST to make games interesting, they have to take chances. All of those chances are hit or miss. Here is another one of those chances...and I hope it works out well.

Good Luck,
Andy Grady
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 12:33
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,391
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I have supported the 254/60 collaboration from the start. With that said, I obviously agree with the FIRST ruling.

Collaboration will not reduce your workload by 50%. Effective collaboration is not easy. Collaboration is not for everyone. Team 217 will probably not collaborate in the future, because we have a very large team which is hard to manage.

For those of you that do not support collaboration, let me leave you with this scenario:

Here is team A (the ThunderChickens, for example) with several CNC mills, lathes, grinders, etc at their disposal. Also, they have 14 CAD workstations with SolidWorks and a 36" laser plotter. They can design and build pretty much anything they want. They also have several software mentors and students that are awesome at C programming.

Here are teams B and C. Team B has an awesome machine shop that has CNC mills, etc. They have no CAD design to speak of (everything on a napkin), but they have mad software writing skills. Team C has design workstations and students who can run them, but no high tech machining capability. Teams B & C team up to do a collaborative effort. Together they design some simple parts, some complicated parts, and some parts in between. They divide the machining up by who has the ability to machine each part, they divide the software development up based on who has the ability, and they divide the detail design (not concepting) by who has the ability. The result is the combined capacity to do what team A can do by themselves. With the ruling on cost to machine not counting against teams, we may even machine parts for people in the future.

I, personally like to be in the team A situation. If I wasn't, you bet we would collaborate with another team that matched our weaknesses with strengths.

-Paul
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 13:10
Joel Glidden's Avatar
Joel Glidden Joel Glidden is offline
My heart pumps diesel.
FRC #4293 (Komodo)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 208
Joel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of light
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I am reminded of something that Dean said at the 2003 kickoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Kamen
The game isn't fair. It was never supposed to be fair.
I believe that this ruling is not fair in the context of the game. But, I agree that it is consistent with the higher level ideals of FIRST. I believe that collaboration at some level is a good thing for FIRST. However, I am worried about what collaboration on the level seen this year will mean for the future of FIRST.

My personal motivation for volunteering in FIRST is twofold. I strongly agree with the ideals and high level objectives of FIRST. I go to bed at night feeling good about having done something positive and contributing to my community. But, when I go in early, stay late, design, strategize, motivate, and pour my sweat and blood into a robot, I do it because I want to do whatever I can to help my team win.

I don't want to come off as melodramatic, but, in all honesty, if FIRST abandons fairness, I will abandon FIRST. I'll have to see how this all plays out in the next few years.

The bottom line is that if the rules of the competition create an environment in which there is no reasonable chance for my team to win, I will find something else to do with my time, money, and energy. I do not need FIRST if I want to have a positive impact on my community. FIRST needs me and others like me if FIRST wants to continue to grow.
__________________
-Joel
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 13:23
Pat Roche Pat Roche is offline
Mechanical Engineer
FRC #0134 (Team Discovery)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Pembroke, NH
Posts: 211
Pat Roche is a splendid one to beholdPat Roche is a splendid one to beholdPat Roche is a splendid one to beholdPat Roche is a splendid one to beholdPat Roche is a splendid one to beholdPat Roche is a splendid one to beholdPat Roche is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Pat Roche
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I applaud FIRST decision on collaboration. It enhances the FIRST experience ten fold. I think Paul put it best in his description. FIRST in a sense is trying to get teams to be like a business. Teams split up between marketing and technical aspects. Teams have leaders that essentially act like the boss. And now teams have to learn to work together. In the real world, companies are constantly working together. This just adds a new challenge for teams to work more as a business.

-Pat
__________________
Team Discovery #134 Alumni 1999-2004
Division by Zero #229 Alumni 2004-2009
Team Discovery again?
2010 and Beyond


Where have the last 11 years have gone?
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 13:28
kevinw kevinw is offline
Registered User
#0065
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Farmington Hills
Posts: 132
kevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to all
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

Wow. A lot's been said, and before it's done, I believe a lot more will be said.

As so many have pointed out, collaboration will allow two teams which are at a disadvantage to overcome that and raise the bar. And inspire more students.

But I can definitely see the point at which this begins to fall apart.

Many companies have engineering centers across the world that work together today. Removing obstacles of language translation and time zone differences, I don't believe collaboration is as difficult as some team's make it out to be. It's been going on in the real world for some time, and while there may be a short adjustment period, it makes things easier across the board.

Where's the downside?

If two teams collaborating is good, wouldn't three teams collaborating be better? It would create a better performing robot, and more students would be inspired by the awesome experience. Wouldn't five teams be better than three? What about ten?

At some point it becomes more impractical because it's difficult to coordinate several sites, but it can be done without too much difficulty on every Saturday, even for five to ten teams.

If these are teams with real complimentary abilities (as in Paul's post), that is one thing. However, as teams become better equipped and as more teams are added to the "super-alliance", I see some sort of regulation being necessary - to prevent one "super-alliance" from becoming so dominant that other teams feel there is no point in participating, and students of the remaining teams become uninspired.

I know that TRW has the ability to coordinate several facilities via NetMeeting, video conferences, etc. and does this with US facilities as well as locations throughout Italy, Germany, Korea, and Japan just to name a few. Designs are shared, reviewed, improved, etc. Again, choosing the proper time becomes an issue with time zones, but it can be worked out.

And based on my experience, I strongly believe that when designing a subsystem or component, it is a lot easier to optimize for weight, strength, performance, etc. over a certain period and coordinate with other facilities as to how it will work with the entire system, than to optimize an entire system for the same characteristics given the same time constraints.

I would be shocked if Delphi / GM / Ford didn't have this ability. This is not to single out companies that I expect would be collaborating in the future, but more to mention some teams (or sponsoring companies) that, if they did collaborate in the future would make it incredibly difficult for a rookie team to be competitive against. Perhaps difficult enough to persuade teams to not form or drop out.

It is true that today there are teams with little to no engineering support. But if collaborating continues , let alone grows, I would hate to listen in on the brainstorming and concept generation meetings that these teams would have, as I imagine they'd go something like:

"What about a robot that grabs the goals and pulls them around?"
"What about a robot that collects balls and delivers them to the player station?"
"What's the point? You know we won't be able to compete with the Delphi Super-Alliance, or the GM Super-Alliance, or ..."

Raising the bar for robot performance is good. Inspiring more students is better. But inspiring select students on superior teams with significantly overlapping capabilities at the cost of the future of the competition (and all it stands for) is, in my opinion, not worth it. I don't mean to imply this is what happened this year. I'm speaking of where I see this leading to.

Some people have even compared this to NASCAR. Where all teams have the same robots (because they all worked in the same Super Alliance) and the competition comes down to which students operate the robot the best. This might still be exciting to watch, but I doubt it will still inspire students to pursue scientific and technological fields.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 13:29
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

Personally I think this decision from FIRST has crossed a new boundary, and in the long run it might not be a good thing.

In the past teams have always helped each other out, sharing knowledge, experience, resources, spare parts, designs from previous years - primarilly sharing knowledge and resources.

the thing that is different now is not only can you tell another team how to do something (shared knowledge) you can actaully DO it for them. Brainstorm, design, fabricate, build, test, debug, and then say "here you go - here is your completed arm, drivetrain, tranny, SW, or the whole machine!"

that will reduce FIRST from a robotics design competition to a robotics sporting competition - you no longer have to account for who built your robot, or where you got it from - another team can build the whole thing for you now, and you only drive it during the matches (that is not what has happened so far, but it is the extreem of what this new ruling allows)

thats the line FIRST has crossed, from showing other teams HOW to design and build, to DOING it for them.

I know that FIRST already supplies default transmissions and default code - enough to get a basic frame up and running - but that is only a starting point - you could not compete very effectively if you only assembled what came in the KOP and added nothing to it

but now things have changed. Now you can get a very sophisticated transmission, or have someone else write very complex code for you, and you can use it in the games, never having to do any design, build, test, debug work yourself - why is this different?

Now there is no incentive to do it yourself - almost anyone could design something better than the stock FIRST drivetrain, but can you design a drivetrain better than teams who win regionls or chamionships repeatedly? Why push yourself out of your comfort zone? why push yourself to learn something new, to work on something you have never done before when you can get a final product from another team that is probabally better than what you can do on your own?

Is this the direction FIRST really wants to take, to eliminate the design competition and focus only on the playfield competition?

And what about the design awards? if 3 or 4 teams show up with identical robots, how can you give a design award to one of them without giving it to all 4 teams? how do you know which team designed the part of the robot that the award is being granted for?

I dont mean to be the devils advocate on this subject - there are many areas within FIRST for teams to work together and make the experiece more rewarding on all sides. Personally I think that allowing one team to DO the work for another will dilute the experience of the receiving team. You learn so much more by trying to solve a problem yourself, even if your solution is not very good or effective on the playfield - at least by then you will know intimately WHY it did not work and have some idea of what you could have done better. If someone else builds all or part of your bot for you then what have you gained?

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life :c) To really set someone on fire with a passion for engineering and science, you have to let them struggle through the design cycle, to push themselves past everything they have done before. And most important, to see for themselves "I can do this!" I believe this is one of the core value of FIRST.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 14:31
Venkatesh Venkatesh is offline
Registered User
FRC #0030
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 260
Venkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to beholdVenkatesh is a splendid one to behold
Thumbs up Re: [moderated] Collaboration

The entire collaboration issue reminds me greatly of the Apollo-Soyuz Test Program. The fact that two teams were able to make this work is impressive.

I also think that FIRST's answer is very professional and makes good sense. Kudos to them.
__________________
-- vs, me@acm.jhu.edu
Mentor, Team 1719, 2007
Team 30, 2002-2005
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 14:57
Swan217's Avatar
Swan217 Swan217 is offline
RoboShow Producer
AKA: DJ Royal Fusion
no team (RoboShow)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Detroit Raised, Orlando Adopted
Posts: 568
Swan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond reputeSwan217 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Swan217
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

You know, on a much less obvious level, many of the Ford teams have been doing this kind of thing for a few years. In the Detroit area, there's Team Ford FIRST, which is a group of Ford sponsored teams. Many of the teams work within a few miles from each other, because it IS the Motor City, and they've become a "union of teams" as such. Every year, you see two or three of Ford robots that range from looking slightly to remarkably similar - that's because many of the teams colaborate between each other during the inital weeks - strategizing, planning, and designing. They share resources with each other, and I don't think they still do this, but they used to run scrimmages against each other around this time of year.

Albeit this case isn't exactly the same thing - I just see it as the next step up, so I wasn't really surprised by it.


Referencing the car analogy, sometimes the major OEM's do collaborate. The Mercury Villager, for example, is a joint venture between Ford-Mercury and Nissan (The Nissan counterpart is called the "Quest"). The late Mercury Cougar was based off of a Mazda platform. Many GM divisions (Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Saturn) end up building one vehicle and slapping a different badge on it.
The point being that most of these collaborations aren't as successful as the companies hope. The sell a lot of cars, but they aren't really "revolutionary" or even above average. They're just mediocre cars that some people buy, and then they fade off and are forgotten.
I don't mean to insult the Bulldogs or the Poofs by this, I just don't think that they'll be any better than most other robots out there. I hope that they do good, but my feeling is that they won't be the best two teams out there.
__________________
Orlando Regional Planning Committee & Cohost of The RoboShow & RoboVision

Follow The RoboShow on Twitter @RoboShowLive & check out our website, www.theroboshow.net

Follow RoboVision on Twitter @RoboVisionOD & check out our website, www.robovisionod.com





"As president, I believe that robotics can inspire young people to pursue science and engineering. And I also want to keep an eye on those robots in case they try anything."
— President Barack Obama
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 14:59
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,574
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I'm still undecided about collaboration as a strategy. I can see how it can damage the game in the future, but I also see how much it can help to inspire students.

That said, I was against it initially, because I couldn't see how it was legal within the rules given to us at the beginning of the competition. However, once again, FIRST has amazed me because they were able to find a happy medium. They have an interpretation which allows 254 and 60 to compete, and also uphold the rules.

Now, of course, this ruling only stands for this year. I'm sure that FIRST is watching this thread, and they will be listening closely at the Team Forums this year. So, this discussion has shifted from whether it is illegal or not, but whether it should be legal in the future, and more importantly WHY it should be legal or illegal in the future.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2004, 15:53
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,176
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated] Collaboration

I have some more comments on the subtleties of collaboration that I will post later. But I do have one thought about the "full-blown" version of collaboration (to the point of co-design and co-building) that has caused all the uproar, and I am very surprised that this has not come up anywhere in the various discussions so far.

As a COMPETITOR, I just absolutely LOVE the fact that these two teams have essentially built the same machine this year, and I hope they continue to do so forever! Why? Because they have just made my job 50% easier!

Huh?

OK, here goes. Every year I get to praise the heavens because our team rarely has to go up against 254 and 60 (thank goodness they are on the wrong side of the country!). Their solutions to the game are always so good, and so creative, that we have to spend a very great amount of time trying to figure out how to defeat them should we ever oppose them in a match (the same can be said for Team Hammond, Chief Delphi, Team 122, and many others). When considering these two teams, we always had to come up with two counter-strategies, develop two sets of plays, practice two sets of scenarios, etc. **

But now, if we can figure out how to beat one of them, then we know how to beat the other. We get twice the benefit for half the work! Everyone posting concerns about how closely teams have collaborated has intimated the result of the collaboration will always be an unbeatable machine. I am not convinced that is the case. We have seen in the past that every "unbeatable" machine has a weakness, and it is just a matter of exploiting it (e.g. even the mighty Beatty Machine in 2002 lost a few rounds). The result of teams collaborating (to the point of co-designing) may be better machines, but I am a long way from assuming they will be unbeatable (or even the "best" machines). Given that, our job is to look for the weaknesses in the design - and if we find it, then we can "kill two birds with one stone."

A concern was expressed earlier in the thread about what would happen if five or ten teams all worked together to build identical machines. Well, they would build ten identical machines, with ten implementations of the same strengths. But they would also have ten copies of the same weaknesses. If we can find it, we have just figured out how to defeat ten teams all at once. So if I hear about ten teams that want to get together, my only response will be "BRING IT ON! "

At the end of the day, I think that the off-the-playfield ramifications of the "full-blown collaboration" are a very positive thing, for the reasons stated in the FIRST answers, and many others. As a potential competitor ON the play field, I like it even more!

-dave

** note: a few times in past years, our response strategy has been to build a machine that falls apart before we can ever compete against these guys, and we therefore avoid the entire issue altogether - perhaps not the brightest strategy, but hey, it works for us!
__________________
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' - and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' - well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru, 2006 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest



My OTHER CAR is still on Mars!!!

Last edited by dlavery : 27-02-2004 at 16:17.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Collaboration.. Brandon Martus Announcements 34 26-02-2004 22:37
FIRST rules on Inter-Team Collaboration Joel Glidden General Forum 3 25-02-2004 13:15
Robot Collaboration Karthik General Forum 153 18-02-2004 03:40


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi