[moderated] Sportsmanship!

[Roland]

Can you guys all stop acting like you're better than everyone else for a minute to show me what in the rules this dude's call is based on?

[Cory]

"That dude" happens to be Andy Baker. Sure, just because he has attained near god status doesnt mean that he is almighty and all knowing (Yes, that was Andy that disabled the wrong team during the finals ), but I can guarentee you that he knows the rules better than 90% of the people who post on Chief Delphi, or attended the Portland regional.

If you dont like Andy's call, Im sure he will be happy to talk to you privately and explain why the call was made. For anyone who is upset just because they got "screwed", grow up. It's called life, and it aint fair, no matter how hard you try.

Anyone who comes around here and tries to diss the ref's isnt going to be too popular. I can't think of many things I hate more than people who crap on those who take time out of their lives, for what? Not for their own benefit, that's for sure.

Next time you see someone walking around in a striped shirt, take the time to thank them for their hard work. Dont worry, they wont bite you!

Cory

[edit] a situation from the 2003 Cal Games just came to me, and I think it's perfect.

My team, along with team 256 (thanks for picking us!), and team 254 made it all the way to the finals. When we got to the finals, we and 254 ran the first round, because 256 was broken and trying to fix their bot. We lost (I think?) this round, and moved to the second. Since 256 was still broken, we went again and won (Or was it the other way around?) For the third and final match, we were all set to go with us and 254 again, since 256 was broken. According to the rules (and as Mark Leon said during one match today) if a team breaks down, they do not have to play during the eliminations matches. However, certain individuals complained to the referrees and we had to take our robot off the field, resulting in the opposing alliance having a 2-1 advantage, and us losing.

The moral of the story is, while both us, 254, and most importantly 256 were denied a chance to win (In the case of portland, the same thing occurred, but the call was good) we had to deal with it like the adults we claim to be. Sure, we knew that we were right, and we shouldve been on the field, but complaining and arguing would have done nothing except to make us look bad to everyone at the event (Like booing the ref's today). We didn't even care about winning really, but we felt especially bad for 256, who had played well all day, then broken down during the finals. They were upset that we had to lose that way, and also thought that they had let us down, which was totally untrue, since they brought us into the finals. When everything was all said and done with, our teams were just as proud of the way that we had handled the situation as if we had won. Sure, it sucked, but we knew we did the right thing.

Wow, that was long.

[Eric Reed]

I was a ref with Andy in Portland. The call was tough, but most teams responded graciously and, by the tone of this thread, still do. I have to disagree with Andy on the booing...it really did disturb me. As many have also mentioned, this was the first time I had heard booing at a competition. I've probably been to close to twenty events. I'm hoping it was a rare event, and not a sign of FIRST getting too big.

A note to Corey (referenceing the quote below)...first abandoned the disabled robot clause as of last year. The rules state that the third robot in the alliance will play in the second match, no exceptions. So in the second match, they should have rotated...the refs made good by requiring the rotation in the third match.

Eric.

Originally Posted by Cory

My team, along with team 256 (thanks for picking us!), and team 254 made it all the way to the finals. When we got to the finals, we and 254 ran the first round, because 256 was broken and trying to fix their bot. We lost (I think?) this round, and moved to the second. Since 256 was still broken, we went again and won (Or was it the other way around?) For the third and final match, we were all set to go with us and 254 again, since 256 was broken. According to the rules (and as Mark Leon said during one match today) if a team breaks down, they do not have to play during the eliminations matches. However, certain individuals complained to the referrees and we had to take our robot off the field, resulting in the opposing alliance having a 2-1 advantage, and us losing.

[team222badbrad]

Our team got booed at in Annapolis. We became tangled with another team and then tried to become free. Apparently other teams thought we were trying to pull them off the bar. Eventually the refs had to shut us off because we just went crazy trying to hang cause at that point we were not paying attention to the score. People in the stands told us we moved the whole platform

( I had a whole bunch of stuff written ready to post but CD logged me out so it lost all my text argh!!!!)

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by Roland

Can you guys all stop acting like you're better than everyone else for a minute to show me what in the rules this dude's call is based on?

Wow way to make your self look good. First off, this "Dude" won the Woodie Flowers Award last year, he is a team leader and an inspiration for thousands of students and other mentors in FIRST (including yours truly). So I would watch what you say.

To show you what Andy Baker's decision was on, read section 4.3.1, which are definitions. The definition "Supported" states: If the "supporting object" is removed............... the robot would not remain hanging.

If I am right, Andy said that he did not feel that the robot was solely supported by the top of the bar. This would be his interpretation of the rules. Don't like it? Instead of making a fuss about it, making your self look bad, and your team, why don't you be a little understanding of the position that Andy is in. It's not like he is bias towards certain teams, he does the best he can.

If this really upsets you this much and you have enough lack of compassion, maybe you should re-take a look of your morals regarding FIRST before you go to another competition.

[Roland]

Tyler, thank you very much for pointing me to this section of the rules. Cory, thanks for answering my question. Wait, did you answer my question? No, you didn't answer my question, you just attacked me for numerous paragraphs for saying that all of you should stop acting like you're better than everyone else. I appreciate volunteers as much as any of you; if it weren't for them I wouldn't be part of FIRST. Some people just need to chill out...

[edomus]

Could someone please tell me the situation in the match and the call that was made. thanks

[ngreen]

The situation was a robot was legally hanging and another push it so that its hook was pushed against the vertical bars attachment. Andy ruled that if the vetical bar wasn't there the hook would have slid off so he ruled they were not hanging. This is discussed in depth in Q & A if you want a reference to the situation.

[KenWittlief]

I hate to even be in this thread, but the whole thing SHOULD be deleted

complaining about a judges call is not GP

complaining about the actions of other teams or individuals is NOT GP EITHER!

telling someone their behavior is not good sportmanship is ITSELF not good sportsmanship

I dont even know what this is all about - apparently a difficult call was made and people were upset

does that surprize you?

why is it not ok for them to be upset, but its ok for you to be upset with them for being upset and coming on here, wagging fingers, using the Lords name, cussing.....

enough already - someone please delete this thread - its not worthy of this forum, or of FIRST.

[Tyler Olds]

Though I do not agree with everything that you have said Ken, I agree this thread should be deleated, I will see to it.

[Amanda Morrison]

I believe the situation was that a hanging robot was supported by the flange on the bar, and that was ruled as an illegal hanging. We saw this call made all over the country, and you can't have one set of rules legal at one competition and another set of rules at another regional. That doesn't work.

Also, with the reports that there was booing of the referees, I'd like to take a step back and say that I hope there is remorse for such an action. We may all be in this program to win, but if you have the audacity to boo a volunteer that is out on that field to be just and fair, you must have missed that whole part of the kickoff that emphasized gracious professionalism. Who cares if it's Andy Baker? Andy Baker is ONE person out on that field. There's several other referees, judges, field resetters, etc. who are helping out that you are insulting. Just because this happens every year doesn't make it any less harsh.

In the heat of competition, a lot of things are said, assumptions made, and grudges held. I would advise you, having been in your exact position myself, to carefully think over what is being said. I would also like to remind you that all personal comments towards other users of the forum should not be posted here - PMing the person will get you better results and not have the rest of us wading through arguments when only looking for information.

Let's make the rest of this season as gracious as possible - let's see the model students that teams brag about, the helpful engineers, the inspiring coaches, and motivating mentors. Let's leave this childishness behind, and let's truly inspire all that we can.

[wasabi824]

i was at the portland competition, and was there when the call was made. i know it may not be of biggest consequence, but the booing that people may have heard on the webcast was solely done by 4 grown men who were sitting behind me. i did not observe any students or anyone else booing. it was indeed a very negative act, but hopefully the students learn by "inverse example".

[Nick Mac]

I think that the way reffing was handled at the J&J regional was handled was amazing. I appologize for not knowing who the head ref was, but Friday when the group of refs were announced, he came right out and said that any problems were to be directed at him and him alone. I don't believe there was any booing at all, other than the fact that one match had to be redone. Peopel were just slightly upset because the match was 3/4 over and the head ref accidentally shut off the wrong bot. But the match was done over and everyone went on there way. I haven't seen anyone arguing about it today at all.

This Part is directed to those who had a problem with Andy Baker's Decision. Even though i wasn't there, this holds true for all of FIRST. You've just got to expect some problems at each competion. Be gracious and accept the fact that the call was made and that its too late to be reversed. I guarantee that at one point in your team's history, you've done something wrong and maybe the call wasn't made and didn't hurt you. I'm positive that you didn't go complaining then. Why, because it didn't hurt you...That's a bit hypocritical. Let it roll off...You've got a shot at the next regional/Nationals.

[Andy Baker]

Hang on... don't delete this thread. I am working on a reply.

I am trying to get un-buried at work right now... bear with me.

Andy B.

[Andy Baker]

First of all, thank you all for the support. Cory and Tyler, thank you for the kind words. Amanda has a great point - it doesn't matter who makes these calls, they are tough to make and they eventually are just the way things are going to be.

As far as the booing, I really could care less since it was directed at me. A ref is a target. If there were people booing at a certain team that is another issue entirely. Also, the boos were not that much. 4 guys sound about right. More importantly, once the boos were heard, there was an overwhelming surge of applause by the rest of the crowd. I was not insulted or put off.

The Portland Regional was quite an experience. While I was disappointed that the field did not work as well as it should've, that did not overcome the overwhelming experience that I had. Simply put, the Portland teams are awesome.

Get this...

During this match, there was a negated hang and a very questionable entaglement. One team was trying to push a hanger and got their hook caught up in the other team's winch strap. After MUCH (too much) deliberation, I announced that the hang was not allowed since the hanger's hook was still being forced against the coupling. However, I also announced that the interaction between the hook and the strap was not a disqualifiable entanglement. The team who had their hang deemed not worth 50 points (and a few booed) won the match by balls and could've been DQ'ed by entanglement.

The 3 teams who lost this match are amazing. While they lost their chance to go on to the finals (it was the deciding match of the semi-finals), they did not give me any crap about it. They were disappointed and wanted an explaination, so I gave it. However, they acted very appropriately and showed much GP.

I relish the experience I had as referee in Portland. Many other tough calls had to be made in other matches and the teams competed well and were graceful along the way. Even when I screwed up one of the finals matches by disabling the wrong team, teams were graceful. I would chalk this experience up to being very frustrating with the FIRST field and scoring program, but also very rewarding from the angle of getting to know the teams and dealing with them through a tough competition.

For those of you out there who were thinking that the Pacific Northwest Regional was a easy ride or a regional with a bunch of weenie teams, you better think again. These teams fought hard for the championship. There were the tough veterans and the amazing rookie teams. They had shifting gearboxes, big ball handlers, funnel-bots, and many hangers. These robots had telemetry systems and sleek tread designs that looked better than anything I ever designed. Also, these teams helped each other out. We saw teams working on each other's robots, lending parts to each other during the elimination rounds and large cheering sections. It was quite impressive. If I didn't know any better, I would've thought that I was in Ypsilanti, Evanston, New Jersey, or Hartford. These teams in the NW have arrived... the rest of FIRST better watch out.

Andy B.