Who's Blue? Who's Red?

I was wondering what people thought about the new alliance marker LED's used this year? At Manchester we were told that it was OK to use clear tape to hold the covers on, since they kept popping off. But my big problem with them was that I had much more difficulty telling what color each robot was. I heard the same comment from several others. When your own robot is competing, it's easy to keep track of who's who, but when other teams are competing I find the old light much more useful than the LED's...

[Jessica Boucher]

Mike Martus & I had a short conversation about this in the pits at NJ.

IMHO, the LED's aren't that effective...but they're a step up from the spinny lights in terms of weight and size. A happy medium needs to be made, and LED's aren't it, unless FIRST can make them more visible somehow. Maybe just a different product is necessary?

[Jon K.]

Originally Posted by WebWader125

I was wondering what people thought about the new alliance marker LED's used this year? At Manchester we were told that it was OK to use clear tape to hold the covers on, since they kept popping off. But my big problem with them was that I had much more difficulty telling what color each robot was. I heard the same comment from several others. When your own robot is competing, it's easy to keep track of who's who, but when other teams are competing I find the old light much more useful than the LED's...

From a distance it is hard to tell who's who. I think if they had a couple of large LED panels it would be better, otherwise go back to the globes. Yes I know they kept breaking but at least you could see the alliance color.

[robolemur1236]

we didnt have a problem with seeing the color, but our covers kept BREAKING when other robots got in a shoving match w/ us. hehe... we knocked the Canadians battery out.

[jjv]

We wanted (FIRST said no) to run red and blue EL wires up our arms and around our chassis, and connect to the LED's, so that when we were red, the red wires would light up, and vice versa. Not only would it be easier to tell, it would look cool.

I like the idea of LED rope lights! I had thought about an LED bar, but that might add too much to the weight. Another option might be to simply include a brightly colored foam ball attached with velcro. The ball could be as large and visible as the old globes, but it wouldn't need to weigh as much, and it really doesn't need to be wired IMHO.

Actually, I think the LED's we used would be much more effective if they flashed more often. It seemed like I'd have to stare at a robot for a couple of seconds before I could tell which side it was on.

[Jason Rudolph]

LED's can work just fine, but they need to be upgraded to brighter ones. A single Luxeon emitter in approximately the same size housing would work just great. They are SUPER bright, enough so that entertainment lighting is starting to use them in all kinds of applications, Just go watch the new wheel of fortune set. All those brightly colored strips are actually LEDs.

www.lumileds.com

[Zach Purser]

Why not just keep the LEDs turned on the whole time rather than flashing them? Seems like a simple solution.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Zach Purser

Why not just keep the LEDs turned on the whole time rather than flashing them? Seems like a simple solution.

Having the flashing lights is actually part of complying with industrial practice and probably regulations from people like OHSA. In our factory, anything that moves has a flashing light on it. The flashing is a warning to pay attention to the machine, it might clobber you. To serve that function they have to seem to flash to the observer. This can be accomplished by either having the light on all the time, but putting it in a spinning mirror, as with the old lights, or by flashing the lights. In or plant we do it both ways, depending on the age of the machinery involved. But the new lights are all flashers.

[Ken Leung]

Originally Posted by Jason Rudolph

LED's can work just fine, but they need to be upgraded to brighter ones. A single Luxeon emitter in approximately the same size housing would work just great. They are SUPER bright, enough so that entertainment lighting is starting to use them in all kinds of applications, Just go watch the new wheel of fortune set. All those brightly colored strips are actually LEDs.

www.lumileds.com

That's another thing to bring up at the team forum. Mean while, it is too late to change the LED to better ones this year.

But is there nothing we can do about it for the remaining competition? Well, not unless we decide we can do something about it. I am nothing, it would not be hard to get teams to put some decoration on their robot that will help show which alliance they are on. You can do that from adding your own light onto the robot to red/blue banner, to colored team number, to colored flag, as long as they are non-functional decoration.

It will be very nice if all the teams see this message, and decide they want to spend a little time to decorate their robot to help the spectators and participants better understand the scoring and the game.

I truely believe things like these can be made better right away, if there are enough people to be aware of it. Will it take time and work to make those decorations? Yes... But, it sure beat not knowing which of the robots are on what alliance, and why they are doing whatever they are doing on the field.

So, who is with me? Let's help bring awareness to as many teams as possible about the problem with the visibility of the LEDs in competition, and ask teams to start adding red/blue decoration on their robots!

[jacob_dilles]

well i think it is obious that the new LED lights are a problem... but they dont have to be. FIRST used very cheap boards ( i couldent resist taking them apart ) and very low intensity leds. i asked if i could add in brighter ones, they said no. i think that the idea of EL wire or strip lights/leds is possable, but it would be almost inpossable to regulate them into a standerd, so i dont think first would do it. what would be quite feasable tho is a bank of leds, say 8 per light of each color, using high-intensity leds, say 3000 ml each. that and a modifyed rate-of-flash (maybe 2x per second @ 50% duty) would be much more effective, just as lightweight, and as hitech as the current lights.

[Joe Matt]

Also, have the LEDs on a spinning mechanism, that would be easier to see and spot, plus it adds another method of telling the robots on, it's spinning!

[Paul H]

I noticed that the lights blink faster in autonomous then they do in the actual match. I think it would be a good idea to have them blink that fast during the entire match. I had no problem seeing the LEDs when they were blinking fast from the stands.

[dlavery]

As with many things in the kit, the flashing LED boards were a compromise. After all the problems with the flashing lights in prior years, there was a desperate desire to get away from them and use something new.

The folks working on the kit of parts at FIRST found the LEDs used in TireFlys and found them to be a good, bright alternative. They tested the LEDs for visibity in the Verizon Arena in Manchester, to make sure they could be seen from the 48th row in the nosebleed sections. Then they had to come up with a design that could be reproduced 4500-5000 times (4 beacons per robot, ~1000 teams, plus spares) for less than $4 each ($16 per robot, fully assembled). They found a vendor to supply the LEDs, and a site for assembly of the boards.

Then reality hit. The LED vendor didn't deliver. The assembly company revised their estimates and said it would take them until March 2004 to build the boards. Time to redesign, with only a few weeks left. InnovationFIRST stepped in and volunteered to take care of the assembly (everyone should go and give Tony Norman and all the IFI employees a real big hug ). The resulting system wasn't quite what was originally spec'd out, but it was on time, it was within the price point (the cost of the kit didn't go up!), and it worked!

Yes, it can be improved, and it will be. But for the first year deployment of a new solution, I think what we have is pretty good. Before everyone runs around yelling about "they need to do it this way..." or "I could have done it better like this..." make sure that you understand all the constraints that factored into the current version. Make sure you can make thousands of them, for a very low price, with guaranteed delivery. And they also have to include all the little functions that are there that you have not seen utilitzed yet...

-dave

p.s.

We wanted (FIRST said no) to run red and blue EL wires up our arms and around our chassis, and connect to the LED's, so that when we were red, the red wires would light up, and vice versa. Not only would it be easier to tell, it would look cool.

Who told you that? EL lighting has been used by several teams in previous years, and it has always fallen under the legal heading of "non-functional decorations" I cannot find anything in the rules that prevent it from being used this year. Team 116 is using it in their OI this year.

[Ryan Foley]

call me crazy but I prefer the old rotating lights. Even though they were big and weighed more, they showed color a lot better, and honestly were pretty cool.

I loved how one team at BAE had all the rotating lights from the past 4 years on a board they kept with them in the stands.