An ethical question

[tenfour]

Dean's corporation has little link to FIRST other than the fact that Dean rules both.

The question you have to ask is: Are you recieving more help than any other team would ethically be allowed to? It sounds like not. There are teams sponsored by auto companies, and aircraft companies. Nobody looke down upon them, so I doubt anybody will look down on you.

[_GP_]

I'm glad to see that everyone seems to have ound it within them to forgive our team for our transgressions... I must really take the blame myself, I was the most involved in the rules and knowing them...

Originally Posted by Raul

The fact that we all agree to ignore that the official rule was broken just supports the argument that this rule should be modified somehow.

I think that the rule should not be modified, it makes sense. I mean If our team had been at any other regional we would have been stuck. A major goal of FIRST is to maintain an even playing field among all teams, and this rule is a part of that.

What I do think should change is the shop. Hardened Steel, while not very common on robots, isn't that uncommon. It doesnt take that many resources by FIRST to add a few drill bits to their shop. No team should need to go off site to fix a part.

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

The Nu-trons, a 7th year veteran team finished 49th out of 51 with at least 75% of rookies doing better than us. We had no downtime, every single minute the robot was in the pits we were repairing design problems. To illustrate how bad it was: I'm one of the programmers, I had to implement new feature in the software. I had less than 10 minutes to do this between matches.

On Thursday we only got 1 practice round because we were working, we spent ever second in between our rounds on Friday working, and that didnt help... we were immobile for two matches. We used our time after our Friday matches to fix the transmissions... (unknowningly against the rules). Don't think that since we broke a rule, that we had it any easier than you. This was only one fix to one problem we had with our robot.

Alot of teams seemed to struggle this year. Our mentor team 140 came in 43/51 after they had last minute design problems and had to revert to another arm the last week of the build season...

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I am thinking...How lucky you are to have access to DEKA! (Can I be envious and still be gracious?) One of the major points of this competition is for students to be exposed to engineering and engineers by working with them. I, for one, know in my heart that Dean would go out of his way to make sure that any DEKA employees would not have an unfair advantage over other teams. He would personally make sure that the rules would be strictly followed.

That was the reason I started this thread, because after seeing the amazing resource that our mentor had, but felt he could not let us use, I felt that I had to try to convince him that they should sponsor us. even if our team could spend one night a week in their workshop it would be an amazing resource and experience for the students...

Since FIRST says you can't machine parts off site, then you CAN't machine parts off site. It doesn't matter whether DEKA did it or some small local machine shop.

We would have liked to machine a hook for our robot - but we didn't. We did what we could with the resources that we had.

If you can bend rules "a little," what are rules for? Who can draw the line? FIRST can, and they did - and that's why they prohibit teams from using a machine shop off-site at a regional.

[Zil709]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

Since FIRST says you can't machine parts off site, then you CAN't machine parts off site. It doesn't matter whether DEKA did it or some small local machine shop.

We would have liked to machine a hook for our robot - but we didn't. We did what we could with the resources that we had.

If you can bend rules "a little," what are rules for? Who can draw the line? FIRST can, and they did - and that's why they prohibit teams from using a machine shop off-site at a regional.

Now mind you, I'm not usually a big fan of rules. But in the case of FIRST, where the playing field is so uneven in terms of finances and equipment availability, I think the rules need to be in place.

Speaking as a member of a team working with nearly zero machining capability, ten students on the entire team (usually only five or so actually work), and a pit space that's a 6 x 12 closet in the corner of my school's assembly room, I understand what it means to have little resources. I think it's great that a team has the available resources like DEKA at their disposal, but at the same time, that resource is not evenly available to each team at the regional, so it's rather unfair to allow one team that advantage. What about out-of-state teams, who may have amazing sponsors, but no access due to distance? The playing field may not always be level, but I feel we shouldn't go machine ladders for those already on platforms to tower ever higher.

[Rich Kressly]

While there's a lot of good discussion here, I always thought Gracious Professionalism was about judging oneself against an ideal, not a tool to judge others. Woodie talks about "acting as if your grandmother was watching" and I don't recall him saying anything about judging others or their grandmothers from a distance.

The following words were written on the tomb of an Anglican Bishop in the Crypts of Westminister Abbey:

"When I was young and free and my imagination had no limits, I dreamed of changing the world.

As I grew older and wiser, I discovered the world would not change, so I shortened my sights somewhat and decided to change only my country. But it, too, seemed immovable.

As I grew into my twilight years, in one last desperate attempt, I settled for changing only my family, those closest to me, but alas, they would have none of it.

And now as I lie on my deathbed, I suddenly realize: If I had only changed my self first, then by example I would have changed my family.

From their inspiration and encouragement, I would then have been able to better my country and, who knows, I may have even changed the world."

Anonymous

From Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Jack Canfield and Mark Victor Hansen, p. 72.

In other words .... let's spend our time ensuring we as individuals are doing the right thing, setting the right example, and inspiring as many as possible. In the end, it's all we really have any control over anyway.

[Erin Rapacki]

I, too, am an employee of DEKA (six-month intern/coop on the iBOT project). I am also a Mechanical Engineering student at Northestern University... so it was a personal choice of mine to keep helping out with 125, although they are an hour drive's away.

As Mike Dubriel just stated, our team had many problems throughout the BAE Regional. It's true that I have access DEKA and some of their machines, but that doesn't mean that I could volunteer their shops or support. There's a difference between a company who's sponsorship includes mentor help from their employees, and a person who decides to help out a nearby team on their own accord.

It's not that I care so much about the rule being broken, but it's the assumption that if a company simply has a nice machine shop that they should volunteer it to a team for a build season. What the kids must also learn about industry is that with time, the machines break down... and that cost needs to be subsidized by the company. Those expensive machines must be saved for precision parts that are essential to DEKA's success, and that letting the students use them could pose a great risk.

There is a possibility for the students on your team to tour DEKA's shop, but as for use... I think that teaming up with another local machine shop or high school shop may be more appropriate. The company needs to approve use of their machines to high school students because there is a lot of liability involved, don't assume it of an employee to provide that kind of service to a team without taking the proper/legal route.

[OneAngryDaisy]

I see many points in this thread.. However, what many are forgetting is this team just needed one hole to be drilled. It wasn't like they machined an entire component. Heck, they could have drilled the hole at the regional's machine shop with the correct bits. Why should they be forced to sit immobile all day through friday and saturday just because they need ONE lousy hole drilled?

It appears that 1277 is only going to one regional- correct me if I am wrong. That would really stink to only go to one regional and be broken throughout the entire competition. That would feel like six weeks of work for nothing, but those guys came in 14th and suceeded big thanks to one tiny hole.

If you can say "ok" to drilling one hole, what is stopping anyone from machining a part?

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

If you can say "ok" to drilling one hole, what is stopping anyone from machining a part?

Gracious professionalism

they are professional about it and only do what absolutely needs to be done to get back in the game

and we are gracious about it and dont sic the lawyers on them

:^)

Yes, I agree that they only did what was absolutely neccessary. That was gracious.

But what about professional? If you're going to be professional, isn't following the rules part of that?

[ No, I am not implying that this team or mentors are cheating/lying. I'm just saying that FIRST drew the line - and everyone should have to (and want to) follow it. ]

[KenWittlief]

the gracious part is in your court- its necessary because we know we are all human and other people are going to make mistakes, screw up, get tired, take shortcuts

if we hold them to the letter of the law FIRST will turn into a nightmare

so instead we anticipate the ocassional mistakes and offenses of others

and WE are gracious and dont hold their feet to the fire when it happens.

[Crop-Circles]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

Yes, I agree that they only did what was absolutely neccessary. That was gracious.

But what about professional? If you're going to be professional, isn't following the rules part of that?

[ No, I am not implying that this team or mentors are cheating/lying. I'm just saying that FIRST drew the line - and everyone should have to (and want to) follow it. ]

Yes, we should all follow the rules and 1277 did not. But if I'm not mistaken, they did not realize they were breaking any rules at the time. No one is saying that we should ignore the rules because we don't like them. We should, however, forgive mistakes. Besides, trying to enforce the rules now is pointless.

[_GP_]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

[ No, I am not implying that this team or mentors are cheating/lying. I'm just saying that FIRST drew the line - and everyone should have to (and want to) follow it. ]

Our team has always tried to follow the rules, we just weren't aware of the one when we broke it (I am curious to actually see the rule.. I can't seem to find it in the manual). Our team wants to foollow the rules and has always tried to, with so few people on the team, I was one of two people who had read the entire manual... so if anyone's its my fault that this mistake took place...

[KenWittlief]

you know, when you are first learning to work with a technology or develop a new skill, you are better off working with simple tools - hand tools are best

the materials you use have physical properties that you can only grasp when you acquire a feel for them - the strenght of alum or steel - how much does it bend before it deforms, how does it cut or file or drill

you cant get that by stuffing stock into an expensive machine and coming back a hour later to get your finished part.

Its interesting to watch new students in FIRST - kids who leave all the bolts loose cause they dont have a feel for when its torqued but not strained - kids who take 10 minutes to drill a 1/4 inch hole in a piece of alum, cause they are afraid to pull on the drill press handle too hard.

If you are going to be a mechanical engineer you have to develope an intuitive sense for the materials you will be using for your whole life - you can only get that by literally getting your hands on them, handling cutting filing drilling bending welding melting...

sometimes being restricted from the big expensive tools is the best thing in the world for you.

[_GP_]

Originally Posted by Erin Rapacki

I, too, am an employee of DEKA (six-month intern/coop on the iBOT project). I am also a Mechanical Engineering student at Northestern University... so it was a personal choice of mine to keep helping out with 125, although they are an hour drive's away.

As Mike Dubriel just stated, our team had many problems throughout the BAE Regional. It's true that I have access DEKA and some of their machines, but that doesn't mean that I could volunteer their shops or support. There's a difference between a company who's sponsorship includes mentor help from their employees, and a person who decides to help out a nearby team on their own accord.

It's not that I care so much about the rule being broken, but it's the assumption that if a company simply has a nice machine shop that they should volunteer it to a team for a build season. What the kids must also learn about industry is that with time, the machines break down... and that cost needs to be subsidized by the company. Those expensive machines must be saved for precision parts that are essential to DEKA's success, and that letting the students use them could pose a great risk.

There is a possibility for the students on your team to tour DEKA's shop, but as for use... I think that teaming up with another local machine shop or high school shop may be more appropriate. The company needs to approve use of their machines to high school students because there is a lot of liability involved, don't assume it of an employee to provide that kind of service to a team without taking the proper/legal route.

Unfortunately this post has drifted away from what I wanted it to be. I wanted to give background info on why I was there... in the process it was discovered that our team broke a rule (yet again.. we appologize we weren't aware at the time). People have focused on that.

My real question was whether it was right for a company that Kamen owns to sponsor a team. I'm not suggesting DEKA sponsor us, it would be great, but we live 45 minutes away so its not very practical... I just wanted to know what people thought about the idea of Dean's company sponsoring a team...